From scque at ymail.com  Thu Oct  2 03:14:40 2008
From: scque at ymail.com (Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que))
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:14:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Zaftig Research Christmas Compilation final call for tracks
Message-ID: <634899.66794.qm@web59808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Just in case some of you didn't see this...? It was posted the Ant_Zen list as well as? the PAdarkAlternative Yahoo group.? It's a great opportunity for experimental/noise artists to get their name out there! 
?
~sc'Que? 
? http://group.yahoo.com/group/PAdarkAlternative/ 

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, Eskaton <brettlunceford at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Eskaton <brettlunceford at gmail.com>
Subject: [PAdarkAlt]:  Zaftig Research Christmas Compilation final call for tracks
Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 4:05 AM

Hola all-

Just sending a reminder that the deadline for the Zaftig Research Christmas
Compilation is fast approaching. The deadline for submissions is October 15..
If you plan on sending anything, drop me an email. The relevant details are
listed below.

After ten years of requesting tracks for this compilation, much of this may
sound familiar, but here's the info anyway. Send us a track of noise, dark
ambient, drone, experimental, etc. that is Christmas / holiday / winter
related. This compilation is a celebration of the season, not a chance to
vent how much you hate Christian holidays. If you follow some other belief
system, celebrate that. After all, just about every belief system has some
kind of holy time during winter. 
If you're new to this, check out Zaftig Research's manifesto on noise
found
at http://www.zaftigresearch.com/aboutzr.html. If this sounds good to you,
send something. 

If you need an idea of what kind of stuff we're looking for, take a look at
past compilations, but here's who has been on the last few: Adamisgod,
Azoikum, Bardoseneticcube, Bjerga-Iversen, Black Saturn, C/A/T,
chalkwhitehands, Conure, ctephin, Dead Man's Hill, DJ Saint Nick, djs,
DQN-kun, Flutwacht vs. Praying for Oblivion, God Flight, Goose, Gorgonized
Dorks, Guignol Dangereux, Hr?nir, humanextermination project, Humidex Meat
Theatre, Hypnoskull, Karl B?smann, Kenji Siratori, Learn, Artist!, mami,
Megatone, Mystified, Narbenerde, Orange, Praying for Oblivion, Puffy Eyes,
Sascha Neudeck, Simulacra, Stolen Light, Suspicion Breeds Confidence, The
Engineer, Thee Virginal Brides, Tonal Y Nagual, Tote Stadt, Xedh, Xedh and 
T?s?ri, Yeti. 

So here are the details. Send a 3-5 minute track on CDR to:

Brett Lunceford
6655 Zeigler Blvd. #H2
Mobile, AL 36608 
USA

The deadline for submissions is October 15 and the compilation should be out
by December 1 (hopefully earlier). The deadline is firm, so if you want to
be on it, send something sooner rather than later. Each contributor will
receive two copies of the compilation. The release will be limited to 100
copies. If you have questions, drop me an email at eskaton at inhell.com.

Brett
Zaftig Research



      

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Sat Oct  4 16:52:30 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FREEZEPOP 10/17 @ SMALLS!
In-Reply-To: <49643.70.20.72.236.1218559366.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <49643.70.20.72.236.1218559366.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <51475.72.22.9.208.1223153550.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>


Boston synthpop heroes return for an all ages, 8 pm show at Mr Smalls!

Fri Oct 17
FREEZEPOP
http://www.freezepop.net
http://www.myspace.com/freezepop

with Boy in Static, and C-Money & Karl Kash

Mr Smalls Theatre, 400 Lincoln Ave, Millvale
tickets $12 advance ($15 door), on sale now at: Eide's Entertainment,
Paul's CDs, Wicked Discs,
Dave's Music Mine, Brighton Music Center, Culture Shop, and The Exchange
(Sq Hill, North Hills or Downtown).
Also from the local band, at Mr Smalls' box office, or at
http://www.mrsmalls.com

Hope to see you there - this will be a lot of fun!


From brian.j.parker at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 09:14:59 2008
From: brian.j.parker at gmail.com (Brian J. Parker)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:14:59 -0400
Subject: FREEZEPOP 10/17 @ SMALLS!
In-Reply-To: <51475.72.22.9.208.1223153550.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>
References: <49643.70.20.72.236.1218559366.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<51475.72.22.9.208.1223153550.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>
Message-ID: <e6330f340810060614h309fd453lc2b6df5dd49e6072@mail.gmail.com>

Damn, I'm going to be out of town.

This is a good time to give random props to Manny.  Because of him,
I've seen both Freezepop and Girl Talk in small venues with about
twenty-some other people at the show.  Now both appear in national
press.


On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 4:52 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> Boston synthpop heroes return for an all ages, 8 pm show at Mr Smalls!
>
> Fri Oct 17
> FREEZEPOP
> http://www.freezepop.net
> http://www.myspace.com/freezepop
>
> with Boy in Static, and C-Money & Karl Kash
>
> Mr Smalls Theatre, 400 Lincoln Ave, Millvale
> tickets $12 advance ($15 door), on sale now at: Eide's Entertainment,
> Paul's CDs, Wicked Discs,
> Dave's Music Mine, Brighton Music Center, Culture Shop, and The Exchange
> (Sq Hill, North Hills or Downtown).
> Also from the local band, at Mr Smalls' box office, or at
> http://www.mrsmalls.com
>
> Hope to see you there - this will be a lot of fun!
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From sugargothee at aol.com  Tue Oct  7 00:47:07 2008
From: sugargothee at aol.com (sugargothee at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:47:07 -0400
Subject: The Gothees, Midge Crickett & Love Like Fire @ BBT Saturday,
	October 11
Message-ID: <8CAF64EE3115FCF-1418-8C5@WEBMAIL-MB17.sysops.aol.com>

It?s an unbel?ievab?le tripl?e-?thril?l bill!? The Amazi?ng Miss Midge? Crick?ett,? Bubbl?e-?Goth Sensa?tions? The Gothe?es and headl?ining? the show.?.?.?San Fran??s own Love Like Fire!?



3 bands?,? 1 Night?,? 5 Bucks?!

www.lovelikefire.com

www.myspace.com/lovelikefire
www.myspace.com/midgecrickett
www.myspace.com/thegothees

From sugargothee at aol.com  Fri Oct 10 10:41:36 2008
From: sugargothee at aol.com (sugargothee at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:41:36 -0400
Subject: Saturday Oct 11 9PM = The Gothees + Midge Crickett + LoveLikeFire @
	Bloomfield Bridge Tavern
Message-ID: <8CAF8FD6E8D3552-530-3C4@FWM-M29.sysops.aol.com>


This Saturday, Hell Comes to Frogtown...I mean, Quirkpop comes to Bloomfield!

It's an unbelievable triple-thrill bill! Featuring the Amazing Miss Midge 
Crickett, Bubble-Goth Sensations The Gothees and headlining all the way from San 
Francisco...Love Like Fire!

Saturday, October 11 @ Bloomfield Bridge Tavern

Doors @ 9PM. $5

Here's some info:

LOVE LIKE FIRE
Ask any member of LoveLikeFire about why the band has become so strong, so 
quickly, and the answer will sound a bit like a confession: The music is a 
compulsion, they say. An inevitability. An obsession. In 2008, the four San 
Franciscans intend to pour that passion into a full-length debut disc. For now, 
though, LoveLikeFire is doing what it's always done: Playing shows wherever and 
whenever. Writing songs constantly. Clinging strongly to the idea that it's 
better to be good than lucky.
In 2007, the band self-booked and self-financed a nationwide tour, one that led 
from out-of-the-way towns to big-city music festivals and back again. Here's 
what audiences discovered: Vocalist/guitarist Ann Yu's voice is formidable and 
feminine, capable of punkish passion and dark rock drama; the rhythm section 
Dave Farrell and Robert Kissinger is exuberant, confident and well-schooled; and 
guitarist Ted Parker's riffs balance so many things -- accessibility and edge, 
clang and beauty, dexterity and spontaneity. And when there's a synth motif or a 
cello line in the mix, the execution is impeccable.

The media took notice, too:

"Local Newbie LoveLikeFire has already racked up acheivements that plenty of 
veteran scenesters would kill for..the generally positive buzz for the band is 
well earned by the thoughtfully arranged, dynamic and dramatic indie rock." - 
The Onion
"LoveLikeFire frontwoman Ann Yu's tremulous, haunting vocal style combines 
elements of CocoRosie, Karen O and Portishead's Beth Gibbons, while the 
delicately woven threads of synthesizer, piano and guitar form an orchestral 
dream-pop tapestry." - Spin.com

www.lovelikefire.com
www.myspace.com/lovelikefire

MIDGE CRICKETT
Midge Crickett is neither a midge nor a cricket. She is a human creature who 
writes silly/sad songs which she sings while accompanying herself on the Cello. 
She began playing the cello at age 7 when her violin teacher got fed up with her 
for always looking for a place to sit down, and to this day she considers 
"always having a place to sit down" to be one of the major perks of playing the 
cello.....and the fact that, in a crisis situation, the cello is an instrument 
big enough to hide behind. It does not, however, ummm...float.
www.myspace.com/midgecrickett

THE GOTHEES
The Gothees are an entertaining and eclectic mix of performers-cum-musicians who 
have a unique and often perverse way of slanting the dominant paradigm of 
rock/pop music or something along those lines. Their music may be best described 
as an unsettling mixture of '60s pop distilled with a hint of '80s influences 
topped with a slight pinch of the punk aesthetic. Imagine the bubblegum pop 
tunes of The Monkees and The Archies interpreted by The Velvet Underground with 
Ian Curtis of Joy Division as lead vocalist ... really.

Oh...and they like theremins. Alot!!!

www.myspace.com/thegothees


The Bloomfield Bridge Tavern
4412 Liberty Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15224

From lkiddey at comcast.net  Tue Oct 14 22:37:36 2008
From: lkiddey at comcast.net (lkiddey)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:37:36 -0400
Subject: My intro to the group
Message-ID: <28F3C92C85A749859EE0B27B4AB2E27D@lkiddeyPC>

Hello all.  I recently rejoined the group after being away for almost 10 years.  Some of you may remember me from my Goth/Industrial music video show called, "Dark Tower" that used to air on Pittsburgh Public Access from 1997 to 1998.  Some may remember me as the thin skinned easily upset baby that I once was.  Back then, I ruined some great friendships and hurt a lot of people.  Between the drugs, not taking my meds for depression and a number of other factors, I was not a pleasant person to be around.

Well fellow Rivet Heads, I'm back and much better.  I'm still in Ohio and have not been to Pittsburgh since 2000.  This is strange as I only live 1 1/2 hours away.  I work for Cabela's in Wheeling, WV and also videotape hunting videos.  I recently decided to go back to school and am now in school for business management.  I am currently carrying a 4.0, but I'm sure as things progress and it gets harder that my grades may go down slightly.  I hope not, but I have to keep a realistic look at things now.

I miss the scene, but I don't know if I could ever really get back into it the way I was before.  I just thought I would rejoin the list to see what people have been up to and see what has changed since I left Pittsburgh in '98. 

I almost forgot to give my name.  It's Larry Kiddey.  I hope those that remember me and remember what a tool I was back in the day can forgive me and maye drop me a line or something.  Anyways, you can also contact me on myspace.com/imafagru

Regards
Larry Kiddey

From jdecay at att.net  Thu Oct 16 13:45:52 2008
From: jdecay at att.net (jdecay at att.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:45:52 +0000
Subject: My intro to the group
In-Reply-To: <28F3C92C85A749859EE0B27B4AB2E27D@lkiddeyPC>
Message-ID: <101620081745.18488.48F77DCF000F27770000483822230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>

I remember that show! Perchance are there episodes floating around anywhere online?

A fair bit has changed in ten years. This email list is generally pretty quiet - I think most of the traffic has migrated to the pghgoth livejournal community and other places. The pghgoth.com website is pretty much moribund.

About the biggest change is the closing of Club Laga and The Upstage, and South Oakland has pretty much died as far as any subcultural relevance goes. Nightsky Productions is no longer around (at least not here in Pittsburgh). On the positives, Distortion Productions and Manny are both still booking Goth/Industrial concerts and going strong. There are some great local bands around, and in greater numbers than there used to be. The only band from back in the day that still exists is Venus in Furs, though several people from the old bands have started new projects. Ceremony is still around and has moved to Pegasus.

In general, I think that the core scene has shrunk, with the exception of when the ginormous acts come through town.
-------------- Original message from "lkiddey" <lkiddey at comcast.net>: -------------- 

Hello all. I recently rejoined the group after being away for almost 10 years. Some of you may remember me from my Goth/Industrial music video show called, "Dark Tower" that used to air on Pittsburgh Public Access from 1997 to 1998. Some may remember me as the thin skinned easily upset baby that I once was. Back then, I ruined some great friendships and hurt a lot of people. Between the drugs, not taking my meds for depression and a number of other factors, I 
> was not a pleasant person to be around. 
> Well fellow Rivet Heads, I'm back and much better. I'm still in Ohio and have not been to Pittsburgh since 2000. This is strange as I only live 1 1/2 hours away. I work for Cabela's in Wheeling, WV and also videotape hunting videos. I recently decided to go back to school and am now in school for business management. I am currently carrying a 4.0, but I'm sure as things progress and it gets harder that my grades may go down slightly. I hope not, but I have to 
> keep a realistic look at things now. 
> 
> I miss the scene, but I don't know if I could ever really get back into it the 
> way I was before. I just thought I would rejoin the list to see what people 
> have been up to and see what has changed since I left Pittsburgh in '98. 
> 
> I almost forgot to give my name. It's Larry Kiddey. I hope those that remember 
> me and remember what a tool I was back in the day can forgive me and maye drop 
> me a line or something. Anyways, you can also contact me on 
> myspace.com/imafagru 
> 
> Regards 
> Larry Kiddey 
> _______________________________________________ 
> pgh-goth-list mailing list 
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org 
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list 

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Thu Oct 16 13:58:40 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:58:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My intro to the group
In-Reply-To: <101620081745.18488.48F77DCF000F27770000483822230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF
	970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
References: <28F3C92C85A749859EE0B27B4AB2E27D@lkiddeyPC>
	<101620081745.18488.48F77DCF000F27770000483822230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
Message-ID: <49889.70.20.86.58.1224179920.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>


Larry Kiddey! Nice to hear from you! Never saw your TV show (I never had
cable) but I certainly
remember your name.

Check out these shows coming up this weekend:
Freezepop Oct 17 @ Smalls
Imperative Reaction Oct 18 @ Pegasus (if you like industrial)
Wovenhand Oct 18 @ Club Cafe (if you like Nice Cave/Crime & the City
Solution type dark rock)

Plus these coming up later in the month:
Gothsicles Oct 26 @ Smiling Moose (not all ages unfortunately)
Autumn/Faded Sympathy (Masquerade 12) @ Pegasus Nov 1

and then there's the Elise's Playground fetish ball Oct 31 at Altar Bar.

And more stuff is coming in Nov, especially on Jim's Distortion
Productions end of things.
Plenty of activity to keep a dark denizen occupied - drive that 90 minutes!

-mt

> I remember that show! Perchance are there episodes floating around
> anywhere online?
>
> A fair bit has changed in ten years. This email list is generally pretty
> quiet - I think most of the traffic has migrated to the pghgoth
> livejournal community and other places. The pghgoth.com website is pretty
> much moribund.
>
> About the biggest change is the closing of Club Laga and The Upstage, and
> South Oakland has pretty much died as far as any subcultural relevance
> goes. Nightsky Productions is no longer around (at least not here in
> Pittsburgh). On the positives, Distortion Productions and Manny are both
> still booking Goth/Industrial concerts and going strong. There are some
> great local bands around, and in greater numbers than there used to be.
> The only band from back in the day that still exists is Venus in Furs,
> though several people from the old bands have started new projects.
> Ceremony is still around and has moved to Pegasus.
>
> In general, I think that the core scene has shrunk, with the exception of
> when the ginormous acts come through town.
> -------------- Original message from "lkiddey" <lkiddey at comcast.net>:
> --------------
>
> Hello all. I recently rejoined the group after being away for almost 10
> years. Some of you may remember me from my Goth/Industrial music video
> show called, "Dark Tower" that used to air on Pittsburgh Public Access
> from 1997 to 1998. Some may remember me as the thin skinned easily upset
> baby that I once was. Back then, I ruined some great friendships and hurt
> a lot of people. Between the drugs, not taking my meds for depression and
> a number of other factors, I
>> was not a pleasant person to be around.
>> Well fellow Rivet Heads, I'm back and much better. I'm still in Ohio and
>> have not been to Pittsburgh since 2000. This is strange as I only live 1
>> 1/2 hours away. I work for Cabela's in Wheeling, WV and also videotape
>> hunting videos. I recently decided to go back to school and am now in
>> school for business management. I am currently carrying a 4.0, but I'm
>> sure as things progress and it gets harder that my grades may go down
>> slightly. I hope not, but I have to
>> keep a realistic look at things now.
>>
>> I miss the scene, but I don't know if I could ever really get back into
>> it the
>> way I was before. I just thought I would rejoin the list to see what
>> people
>> have been up to and see what has changed since I left Pittsburgh in '98.
>>
>> I almost forgot to give my name. It's Larry Kiddey. I hope those that
>> remember
>> me and remember what a tool I was back in the day can forgive me and
>> maye drop
>> me a line or something. Anyways, you can also contact me on
>> myspace.com/imafagru
>>
>> Regards
>> Larry Kiddey
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From synthdrome at gmail.com  Sun Oct 19 11:33:30 2008
From: synthdrome at gmail.com (Shawn Rudiman)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:33:30 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
Message-ID: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>

hello all.

shawn rudiman here from thd/technoir audio. 2 reasons to post: ONE:  THD
-TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION will have a new album available soon. it will be
available digitally though  rhapsody, amazon and (i think itunes as well.)
It is a 15 track classic sounding releases.  its nothing like whats
currently out.  it will be released on a new pgh industrial funk/
experimental/ EBM label run by myself and a 2 friends from ny and pa. we
have 3 releases slated all ready.  i will post all available info in a bit.
sadly we cant afford to release cd's or delicious vinyl. so we have gone the
digital route to the most accessible retailers.  so id like to get anyone in
PGH who is interested advance cd copies (just personal burn copies with no
art) esp manny. :) to get all possible feedback (negative and positive)

TWO: im extending an offer fro FREE (yes FREE!) studio remixes and time for
one song to any industrial/ebm/synthpop band from pgh. all i ask is that you
have a demo of the song and its all written and worked out.  i can supply a
vintage and modern studio in a 24 hour usuable commercial space and 18 years
of production experience and the finest equipment  for that style available
in this city.  this is serious offer and please take it as so.  send all
inquiries to me directly, synthdrome at gmail.com.

thanks for your time, and hopefully people wont do the normal pgh thing..
and not do anything.

shawn rudiman
synthdrome/machine age studios
technoir audio records

From jdecay at att.net  Wed Oct 22 09:44:14 2008
From: jdecay at att.net (jdecay at att.net)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:44:14 +0000
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>

Glad to hear that THD is back in business - planning on doing any shows?

Respectfully, I must disagree that the Pittsburgh thing is to do nothing. On the contratry, I think Pittsburgh has had and continues to have some especially active local bands, artists, writers, promoters, and the like.
-------------- Original message from "Shawn Rudiman" <synthdrome at gmail.com>: -------------- 


> hello all. 
> 
> shawn rudiman here from thd/technoir audio. 2 reasons to post: ONE: THD 
> -TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION will have a new album available soon. it will be 
> available digitally though rhapsody, amazon and (i think itunes as well.) 
> It is a 15 track classic sounding releases. its nothing like whats 
> currently out. it will be released on a new pgh industrial funk/ 
> experimental/ EBM label run by myself and a 2 friends from ny and pa. we 
> have 3 releases slated all ready. i will post all available info in a bit. 
> sadly we cant afford to release cd's or delicious vinyl. so we have gone the 
> digital route to the most accessible retailers. so id like to get anyone in 
> PGH who is interested advance cd copies (just personal burn copies with no 
> art) esp manny. :) to get all possible feedback (negative and positive) 
> 
> TWO: im extending an offer fro FREE (yes FREE!) studio remixes and time for 
> one song to any industrial/ebm/synthpop band from pgh. all i ask is that you 
> have a demo of the song and its all written and worked out. i can supply a 
> vintage and modern studio in a 24 hour usuable commercial space and 18 years 
> of production experience and the finest equipment for that style available 
> in this city. this is serious offer and please take it as so. send all 
> inquiries to me directly, synthdrome at gmail.com. 
> 
> thanks for your time, and hopefully people wont do the normal pgh thing.. 
> and not do anything. 
> 
> shawn rudiman 
> synthdrome/machine age studios 
> technoir audio records 
> _______________________________________________ 
> pgh-goth-list mailing list 
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org 
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list 

From brian.j.parker at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 11:43:21 2008
From: brian.j.parker at gmail.com (Brian J. Parker)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:43:21 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6330f340810220843t7d774a4bned5e539f7e393141@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Shawn Rudiman <synthdrome at gmail.com> wrote:
> TWO: im extending an offer fro FREE (yes FREE!) studio remixes and time for
> one song to any industrial/ebm/synthpop band from pgh.

Damn, I wish I had a band.  This guy is GOOD, y'unz!

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 17:14:42 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:14:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF
	970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
Message-ID: <49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Yeah, I suppose Girl Talk is *doing nothing* by selling out huge venues
worldwide?
Or on a smaller scale, Xanopticon and Michael Johnsen, both of whom have
toured Europe etc.

But I do understand Shawn's sentiment. I think Pittsburgh is much more
*know nothing* than *do nothing*. In other words, there are plenty of
people doing things - opening galleries, doing shows at bars, etc. - but
often 1) they don't know how to collaborate with others or how to promote,
or how to move outside of their little sub-circles and 2) they and their
audiences are ignorant of most music, because they simply don't use the
resources that are already available to them here (like shopping at local
indie record stores, or listening to WRCT, or attending lots of smaller
cool shows, etc) so a lot of local music tends to be inferior
aesthetically because it is, simply put, underinformed.

There are always exceptions to that rule, though, but never nearly enough
to vault Pittsburgh into a noticeable, erudite scene that the world cares
about (except maybe for worldwide crustpunks who worship Aus Rotten).

On the other hand, this underwhelming response to things does allow bands
who do find a worldwide audience (such as Girl Talk, or Modey Lemon, or
even Shawn) to work relatively undisturbed and hone their craft without
having to flit about amongst endless scenester politics etc. in other
words there's a certain comfort (and mystery) in obscurity.

 Some examples? Well, one of the most legendary drum 'n bass artists of
all time had to play a 150-cap polish tavern. that's very pittsburgh. or
two british folksinging legends from the 70s, with about 20 albums out,
had to play a small bar in the east end, and an art gallery in a ghetto.
that's very pittsburgh too. don't you think?


> Glad to hear that THD is back in business - planning on doing any shows?
>
> Respectfully, I must disagree that the Pittsburgh thing is to do nothing.
> On the contratry, I think Pittsburgh has had and continues to have some
> especially active local bands, artists, writers, promoters, and the like.
> -------------- Original message from "Shawn Rudiman"
> <synthdrome at gmail.com>: --------------
>
>
>> hello all.
>>
>> shawn rudiman here from thd/technoir audio. 2 reasons to post: ONE: THD
>> -TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION will have a new album available soon. it will
>> be
>> available digitally though rhapsody, amazon and (i think itunes as
>> well.)
>> It is a 15 track classic sounding releases. its nothing like whats
>> currently out. it will be released on a new pgh industrial funk/
>> experimental/ EBM label run by myself and a 2 friends from ny and pa. we
>> have 3 releases slated all ready. i will post all available info in a
>> bit.
>> sadly we cant afford to release cd's or delicious vinyl. so we have gone
>> the
>> digital route to the most accessible retailers. so id like to get anyone
>> in
>> PGH who is interested advance cd copies (just personal burn copies with
>> no
>> art) esp manny. :) to get all possible feedback (negative and positive)
>>
>> TWO: im extending an offer fro FREE (yes FREE!) studio remixes and time
>> for
>> one song to any industrial/ebm/synthpop band from pgh. all i ask is that
>> you
>> have a demo of the song and its all written and worked out. i can supply
>> a
>> vintage and modern studio in a 24 hour usuable commercial space and 18
>> years
>> of production experience and the finest equipment for that style
>> available
>> in this city. this is serious offer and please take it as so. send all
>> inquiries to me directly, synthdrome at gmail.com.
>>
>> thanks for your time, and hopefully people wont do the normal pgh
>> thing..
>> and not do anything.
>>
>> shawn rudiman
>> synthdrome/machine age studios
>> technoir audio records
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 17:43:17 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:43:17 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>

Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ

As for listening to WRCT. That's the radio station you were banned
from, right? Why was that, Manny?


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:14 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I suppose Girl Talk is *doing nothing* by selling out huge venues
> worldwide?
> Or on a smaller scale, Xanopticon and Michael Johnsen, both of whom have
> toured Europe etc.
>
> But I do understand Shawn's sentiment. I think Pittsburgh is much more
> *know nothing* than *do nothing*. In other words, there are plenty of
> people doing things - opening galleries, doing shows at bars, etc. - but
> often 1) they don't know how to collaborate with others or how to promote,
> or how to move outside of their little sub-circles and 2) they and their
> audiences are ignorant of most music, because they simply don't use the
> resources that are already available to them here (like shopping at local
> indie record stores, or listening to WRCT, or attending lots of smaller
> cool shows, etc) so a lot of local music tends to be inferior
> aesthetically because it is, simply put, underinformed.
>
> There are always exceptions to that rule, though, but never nearly enough
> to vault Pittsburgh into a noticeable, erudite scene that the world cares
> about (except maybe for worldwide crustpunks who worship Aus Rotten).
>
> On the other hand, this underwhelming response to things does allow bands
> who do find a worldwide audience (such as Girl Talk, or Modey Lemon, or
> even Shawn) to work relatively undisturbed and hone their craft without
> having to flit about amongst endless scenester politics etc. in other
> words there's a certain comfort (and mystery) in obscurity.
>
>  Some examples? Well, one of the most legendary drum 'n bass artists of
> all time had to play a 150-cap polish tavern. that's very pittsburgh. or
> two british folksinging legends from the 70s, with about 20 albums out,
> had to play a small bar in the east end, and an art gallery in a ghetto.
> that's very pittsburgh too. don't you think?
>
>
>> Glad to hear that THD is back in business - planning on doing any shows?
>>
>> Respectfully, I must disagree that the Pittsburgh thing is to do nothing.
>> On the contratry, I think Pittsburgh has had and continues to have some
>> especially active local bands, artists, writers, promoters, and the like.
>> -------------- Original message from "Shawn Rudiman"
>> <synthdrome at gmail.com>: --------------
>>
>>
>>> hello all.
>>>
>>> shawn rudiman here from thd/technoir audio. 2 reasons to post: ONE: THD
>>> -TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION will have a new album available soon. it will
>>> be
>>> available digitally though rhapsody, amazon and (i think itunes as
>>> well.)
>>> It is a 15 track classic sounding releases. its nothing like whats
>>> currently out. it will be released on a new pgh industrial funk/
>>> experimental/ EBM label run by myself and a 2 friends from ny and pa. we
>>> have 3 releases slated all ready. i will post all available info in a
>>> bit.
>>> sadly we cant afford to release cd's or delicious vinyl. so we have gone
>>> the
>>> digital route to the most accessible retailers. so id like to get anyone
>>> in
>>> PGH who is interested advance cd copies (just personal burn copies with
>>> no
>>> art) esp manny. :) to get all possible feedback (negative and positive)
>>>
>>> TWO: im extending an offer fro FREE (yes FREE!) studio remixes and time
>>> for
>>> one song to any industrial/ebm/synthpop band from pgh. all i ask is that
>>> you
>>> have a demo of the song and its all written and worked out. i can supply
>>> a
>>> vintage and modern studio in a 24 hour usuable commercial space and 18
>>> years
>>> of production experience and the finest equipment for that style
>>> available
>>> in this city. this is serious offer and please take it as so. send all
>>> inquiries to me directly, synthdrome at gmail.com.
>>>
>>> thanks for your time, and hopefully people wont do the normal pgh
>>> thing..
>>> and not do anything.
>>>
>>> shawn rudiman
>>> synthdrome/machine age studios
>>> technoir audio records
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From xopher.tm at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 17:54:24 2008
From: xopher.tm at gmail.com (Christopher tm)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:54:24 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
> Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
> can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
> live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ

The last five minutes of my life. Give them back to me.

-- 
Christopher?

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 18:06:50 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:06:50 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>

Eh. I don't wanna shit on Girl Talk. Like I said. I have an album of
his. It's fun. But he's not a performing musician by any normal
definition of the words "performing musician." He gets on stage and
hits the play button on one of his albums. Then he jumps around like a
spaz, and people have fun. I have no problem with fun or with Girl
Talk. I in fact enjoy both Girl Talk and fun. But I do have a problem
with people trying to say that he's a live musician.



On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
>> can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
>> live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ
>
> The last five minutes of my life. Give them back to me.
>
> --
> Christopher?
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 18:40:46 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:40:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


> Eh. I don't wanna shit on Girl Talk. Like I said. I have an album of
> his. It's fun. But he's not a performing musician by any normal
> definition of the words "performing musician." He gets on stage and
> hits the play button on one of his albums. Then he jumps around like a
> spaz, and people have fun. I have no problem with fun or with Girl
> Talk. I in fact enjoy both Girl Talk and fun. But I do have a problem
> with people trying to say that he's a live musician.

in fact, he hits lots of buttons during his show, using Ableton and such.

> Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
> can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
> live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ

he plays live music which he created himself. that is definitely
performing music.

also re Christopher:
The last five minutes of my life. Give them back to me.

1) no one forced you to watch all the way thru
2) video has 60,000 more views than any video you've made.
3) seen any laptop electronic performances? if not, you need a better
frame of reference
because gregg's is way more entertaining than most.

> As for listening to WRCT. That's the radio station you were banned
> from, right? Why was that, Manny?

Because two people who didn't like me (one of whom some people on this
list used to know quite well) convinced three others to go along with
them, got together in a room and decided to trump up enough false and/or
highly exaggerated charges to railroad me out of there in a kangaroo court
with no warning. when in fact, i was performing *several* useful volunteer
functions at the time for the station. more useful than some of them were.
they were threatened more by my high-energy, high-profile, multitasking
nature than by anything else. Bannings don't have to happen for a good
reason, they just have to happen because someone has the whim to do it.

But that has nothing to do with being informed about music by listening to
the radio, looking at the internet, and reading the magazines,  none of
which anyone seems to do around here (if they did, they'd be informed). I
have no beef with the aesthetic mission of WRCT (merely those people who
were my unexpected nemeses), it remains as highly recommended as a source
for undiscovered music as it did when i listened to it in high school 25
years ago. how many things can you say that about?

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 18:42:13 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:42:13 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>

FWIW, the behavior surrounding Girl Talk is kind of interesting in
that it's sort of a one-off experiment in the value of celebrity. I
mean, when someone hires Girl Talk to show up, they're hiring him to
arrive with his laptop and press play on one of his albums, which is
something anyone could do for themselves. But the thing is, they don't
want to do it themselves, they want Girl Talk to do it. They're paying
for celebrity in isolation.

So, if you ever wonder how much celebrity is worth, find out how much
Girl Talk gets paid, and that's your answer.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
>> can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
>> live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ
>
> The last five minutes of my life. Give them back to me.
>
> --
> Christopher?
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 18:54:23 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:54:23 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
them. Good story.

>> As for listening to WRCT. That's the radio station you were banned
>> from, right? Why was that, Manny?
>
> Because two people who didn't like me (one of whom some people on this
> list used to know quite well) convinced three others to go along with
> them, got together in a room and decided to trump up enough false and/or
> highly exaggerated charges to railroad me out of there in a kangaroo court
> with no warning. when in fact, i was performing *several* useful volunteer
> functions at the time for the station. more useful than some of them were.
> they were threatened more by my high-energy, high-profile, multitasking
> nature than by anything else. Bannings don't have to happen for a good
> reason, they just have to happen because someone has the whim to do it.
>
> But that has nothing to do with being informed about music by listening to
> the radio, looking at the internet, and reading the magazines,  none of
> which anyone seems to do around here (if they did, they'd be informed). I
> have no beef with the aesthetic mission of WRCT (merely those people who
> were my unexpected nemeses), it remains as highly recommended as a source
> for undiscovered music as it did when i listened to it in high school 25
> years ago. how many things can you say that about?
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 18:55:33 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:55:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk 11/22 contract
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Wrong.

First of all, Girl Talk doesn't get paid that much. I mean the conductor
of the Pittsburgh Symphony gets paid probably around the amount that Girl
Talk does, per concert. And why is the conductor there? Just as much for
celebrity, because they could pay a local guy to conduct the symphony
instead, but they cannot pay a local guy in each city to create what Girl
Talk does because what Girl Talk does is still fairly unique (or at least
still unequalled).

Real celebrity is worth millions. Like when you find out how much  Tom
Cruise commands per movie, when someone else could fill his role for 1/10
of that, that's what celebrity is worth. Girl Talk can't be compared to
that when he gets $2000 or so per gig. You could say that's what a D-list
celeb might get paid, but then I think even Kathy Griffin gets more :)

The real cultural comment is how much DJs get paid for their celebrity,
when they do not even play their own music. DJs in the goth scene, as
well, get paid for playing other people's music, am I right? it is true
that the obsession with 'celebrity culture' is to some extent what is
fueling the interest in Girl Talk, which is an interesting postmodern
commentary considering that he uses
the samples of musical celebrities in his music, and he does not deny the
value of celebrity appearances like getting a photo taken with Paris
Hilton, but Girl Talk himself is not a DJ, so just because people think he
is a DJ and treat him as one - i.e. they make him into a celebrity -
doesn't mean his live performance is invalid.

The music that Girl Talk plays (and in fact uses buttons at the show to
change, so it is not just pressing play) is his own creation. albeit
created out of thousands of samples of others. Gregg does not get paid an
'appearance fee', he gets paid a performance fee because he performs.

You would not deny Skinny Puppy the right to sample from Bladerunner so
how is this any different, other than the fact that the invention of the
laptop makes it easy for a single person to go out and perform electronic
music? (you longer have to go out with racks of synths and banks of
keyboards like back in 1987)

> FWIW, the behavior surrounding Girl Talk is kind of interesting in
> that it's sort of a one-off experiment in the value of celebrity. I
> mean, when someone hires Girl Talk to show up, they're hiring him to
> arrive with his laptop and press play on one of his albums, which is
> something anyone could do for themselves. But the thing is, they don't
> want to do it themselves, they want Girl Talk to do it. They're paying
> for celebrity in isolation.
>
> So, if you ever wonder how much celebrity is worth, find out how much
> Girl Talk gets paid, and that's your answer.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Girl Talk is fun. I have a Girl Talk album. But, I don't know if you
>>> can call what he does "performing music." Here's a video of Girl Talk
>>> live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWYHj7fZQ
>>
>> The last five minutes of my life. Give them back to me.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher?
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 19:49:35 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:49:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
> them. Good story.

They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or even
remotely most of it)
were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then convince
three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well as
for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't have
had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my side
(I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
banning) or didn't care one way or the other.

Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and what
I was supposedly accused of:

1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served in
both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make the
calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do their
*homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
course.

2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a message
machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made calls
to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings. Some
people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted the
ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as if
it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how is
that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone who
works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.

3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find import/indie
experimental/industrial
albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station never
even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget. Instead,
the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they would
have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under experimental,
you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station. The
music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the five
people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite well
as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while also
supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
(except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
and  everyone was being helped.

Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
(even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why would I
finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of supposed
'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
kangaroo one.

4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts (not
just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the impetus
for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other words,
I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a position
which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to give
the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people who
started this plan. That is no coincidence.

5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only instance
that could be brought up
is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could have
been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but I
asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other instances
of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one instance
of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about our
fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing do
with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another example.
So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.

6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by the
program director.
This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned about
it before, and that was
grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
perfectly willing to accept
as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was certainly
not grounds for
being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station staff
who did things (such as engineering etc)
who didn't have a show that semester.

So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true accusation
was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that semester.
And that's it.

THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.

Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
station.
It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well for
doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done or
was falsely accused of.

I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed threats.
(In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely following
procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for banning
me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
would cause trouble. Which I did not.

'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of it
is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
incident and nothing more.

If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the ban,
from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I wasn't
banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that time,
so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
at that exact particular time.

Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been in
the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved at
WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me having
my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab). Then
the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left the
station and never was heard from since.

In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
there was no way of knowing
that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
and without recourse.
So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
wrong time, mixing it up
with the wrong people.

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 19:56:57 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:56:57 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>

You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
a total fluke too.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>> them. Good story.
>
> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or even
> remotely most of it)
> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then convince
> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well as
> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't have
> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my side
> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>
> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and what
> I was supposedly accused of:
>
> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served in
> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make the
> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do their
> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
> course.
>
> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a message
> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made calls
> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings. Some
> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted the
> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as if
> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how is
> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone who
> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>
> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find import/indie
> experimental/industrial
> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station never
> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget. Instead,
> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they would
> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under experimental,
> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station. The
> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the five
> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite well
> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while also
> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
> and  everyone was being helped.
>
> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why would I
> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of supposed
> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
> kangaroo one.
>
> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts (not
> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the impetus
> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other words,
> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a position
> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to give
> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people who
> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>
> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only instance
> that could be brought up
> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could have
> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but I
> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other instances
> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one instance
> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about our
> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing do
> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another example.
> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>
> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by the
> program director.
> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned about
> it before, and that was
> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
> perfectly willing to accept
> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was certainly
> not grounds for
> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station staff
> who did things (such as engineering etc)
> who didn't have a show that semester.
>
> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true accusation
> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that semester.
> And that's it.
>
> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>
> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
> station.
> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well for
> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done or
> was falsely accused of.
>
> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed threats.
> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely following
> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for banning
> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>
> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of it
> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
> incident and nothing more.
>
> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the ban,
> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I wasn't
> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that time,
> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
> at that exact particular time.
>
> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been in
> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved at
> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me having
> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab). Then
> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left the
> station and never was heard from since.
>
> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
> there was no way of knowing
> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
> and without recourse.
> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
> wrong time, mixing it up
> with the wrong people.
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 20:02:04 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk 
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com> 
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> 
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com> 
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


> You compared Girl Talk to the conductor of a Symphony Orchestra. Heh.

Well, technically, you said he is an example of celebrity.

So I merely brought out an example with which I thought you'd resonate,
that is the function of a symphony orchestra conductor as celebrity, which
is quite common. They don't put the entire orchestra on billboards and bus
stop ads, they put the face of the conductor, who is the face of the
orchestra, even though he does not perform on an instrument, nor create or
perform his original music. The conductor, unless he is conducting his own
music, has nothing to do with the performance of original music creations
(and neither do the symphony players), only with the reinterpretation of
others' works, like the 18th century equivalent of a DJ.

And therefore, the conductor is more about celebrity, and less about
performance, than Girl Talk is, who performs his own original works live.

In other words, the medium of performance has changed so much - from
orchestra, to rock band, to banks of synths and drum machines, to a laptop
- that the frame of reference has to change radically as well. The
performance should be put in its proper contemporary context (and not
misunderstood), which is that of a single guy using Ableton Live to play
his music on stage in a performance setting.


From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 20:07:56 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:07:56 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>

While Girl Talk isn't an a-list celebrity, he is a celebrity nonetheless.

It should be noted that being a serious musician is not "the 18th
century equivalent of a DJ." Apparently you don't know what a symphony
orchestra conductor does, or what serious musicians do. That's OK.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:02 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
>> You compared Girl Talk to the conductor of a Symphony Orchestra. Heh.
>
> Well, technically, you said he is an example of celebrity.
>
> So I merely brought out an example with which I thought you'd resonate,
> that is the function of a symphony orchestra conductor as celebrity, which
> is quite common. They don't put the entire orchestra on billboards and bus
> stop ads, they put the face of the conductor, who is the face of the
> orchestra, even though he does not perform on an instrument, nor create or
> perform his original music. The conductor, unless he is conducting his own
> music, has nothing to do with the performance of original music creations
> (and neither do the symphony players), only with the reinterpretation of
> others' works, like the 18th century equivalent of a DJ.
>
> And therefore, the conductor is more about celebrity, and less about
> performance, than Girl Talk is, who performs his own original works live.
>
> In other words, the medium of performance has changed so much - from
> orchestra, to rock band, to banks of synths and drum machines, to a laptop
> - that the frame of reference has to change radically as well. The
> performance should be put in its proper contemporary context (and not
> misunderstood), which is that of a single guy using Ableton Live to play
> his music on stage in a performance setting.
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 20:58:13 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:58:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49767.70.20.70.70.1224723493.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


You are underinformed about me, per se.

I know exactly what a symphony conductor does.
I took conducting classes both at CAPA and Carnegie Mellon, and I also
took some theory classes at both places arranging and interpreting
orchestral scores. I took many 'serious' music classes
at both institutions, and having worked for the Pgh New Music Ensemble for
ten years, as well as having sung in a professional choir for over a
decade, I knew many serious professional musicians.

An orchestra or other classical ensemble almost always plays other
people's music, not their own.
DJs almost always play other people's music, not their own.

Yet in fact, at the rare instance that original music is played, it's much
more likely that the DJ will play original music than the orchestra will.
That is because today, a DJ who also writes music can
compose it on computers, and even press it on a dub plate, for very little
cost and relatively little effort. Whereas the cost of commissioning an
orchestra to perform original music composed by its own conductor or one
of its players is rather vast and time-consuming in the classical world,
so it's not done as often. When it's done, it's usually in the context of
a "New Music Ensemble", which is something else entirely that most lovers
of classical music don't want to attend or hear, because they just want to
hear the tried and true classical chestnut hits.

The same way that a crowd wants to hear familiar hits played by the DJ.
Shall I go on with the analogies, or is it starting to make sense?

Note that my intention is by no means to denigrate the function of either
an orchestra or a DJ.
They both have their function, which is to replay or reinterpret
previously composed music.
But what they both don't usually do, at least in widely accepted and
popular situations, is play their own original, composed music.

However, Girl Talk does.

> While Girl Talk isn't an a-list celebrity, he is a celebrity nonetheless.
>
> It should be noted that being a serious musician is not "the 18th
> century equivalent of a DJ." Apparently you don't know what a symphony
> orchestra conductor does, or what serious musicians do. That's OK.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:02 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You compared Girl Talk to the conductor of a Symphony Orchestra. Heh.
>>
>> Well, technically, you said he is an example of celebrity.
>>
>> So I merely brought out an example with which I thought you'd resonate,
>> that is the function of a symphony orchestra conductor as celebrity,
>> which
>> is quite common. They don't put the entire orchestra on billboards and
>> bus
>> stop ads, they put the face of the conductor, who is the face of the
>> orchestra, even though he does not perform on an instrument, nor create
>> or
>> perform his original music. The conductor, unless he is conducting his
>> own
>> music, has nothing to do with the performance of original music
>> creations
>> (and neither do the symphony players), only with the reinterpretation of
>> others' works, like the 18th century equivalent of a DJ.
>>
>> And therefore, the conductor is more about celebrity, and less about
>> performance, than Girl Talk is, who performs his own original works
>> live.
>>
>> In other words, the medium of performance has changed so much - from
>> orchestra, to rock band, to banks of synths and drum machines, to a
>> laptop
>> - that the frame of reference has to change radically as well. The
>> performance should be put in its proper contemporary context (and not
>> misunderstood), which is that of a single guy using Ableton Live to play
>> his music on stage in a performance setting.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 21:08:02 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:08:02 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <49767.70.20.70.70.1224723493.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>
	<49767.70.20.70.70.1224723493.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221808o54e39a1o195faaa10ab6511a@mail.gmail.com>

You're comparing putting a CD into a CD player and training for two
decades on an instrument.

I compose music with computers. I put CDs into CD players. I perform
on instruments. They're not the same thing. They're only loosely
comparable in that the end product is some sound.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:58 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> You are underinformed about me, per se.
>
> I know exactly what a symphony conductor does.
> I took conducting classes both at CAPA and Carnegie Mellon, and I also
> took some theory classes at both places arranging and interpreting
> orchestral scores. I took many 'serious' music classes
> at both institutions, and having worked for the Pgh New Music Ensemble for
> ten years, as well as having sung in a professional choir for over a
> decade, I knew many serious professional musicians.
>
> An orchestra or other classical ensemble almost always plays other
> people's music, not their own.
> DJs almost always play other people's music, not their own.
>
> Yet in fact, at the rare instance that original music is played, it's much
> more likely that the DJ will play original music than the orchestra will.
> That is because today, a DJ who also writes music can
> compose it on computers, and even press it on a dub plate, for very little
> cost and relatively little effort. Whereas the cost of commissioning an
> orchestra to perform original music composed by its own conductor or one
> of its players is rather vast and time-consuming in the classical world,
> so it's not done as often. When it's done, it's usually in the context of
> a "New Music Ensemble", which is something else entirely that most lovers
> of classical music don't want to attend or hear, because they just want to
> hear the tried and true classical chestnut hits.
>
> The same way that a crowd wants to hear familiar hits played by the DJ.
> Shall I go on with the analogies, or is it starting to make sense?
>
> Note that my intention is by no means to denigrate the function of either
> an orchestra or a DJ.
> They both have their function, which is to replay or reinterpret
> previously composed music.
> But what they both don't usually do, at least in widely accepted and
> popular situations, is play their own original, composed music.
>
> However, Girl Talk does.
>
>> While Girl Talk isn't an a-list celebrity, he is a celebrity nonetheless.
>>
>> It should be noted that being a serious musician is not "the 18th
>> century equivalent of a DJ." Apparently you don't know what a symphony
>> orchestra conductor does, or what serious musicians do. That's OK.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:02 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You compared Girl Talk to the conductor of a Symphony Orchestra. Heh.
>>>
>>> Well, technically, you said he is an example of celebrity.
>>>
>>> So I merely brought out an example with which I thought you'd resonate,
>>> that is the function of a symphony orchestra conductor as celebrity,
>>> which
>>> is quite common. They don't put the entire orchestra on billboards and
>>> bus
>>> stop ads, they put the face of the conductor, who is the face of the
>>> orchestra, even though he does not perform on an instrument, nor create
>>> or
>>> perform his original music. The conductor, unless he is conducting his
>>> own
>>> music, has nothing to do with the performance of original music
>>> creations
>>> (and neither do the symphony players), only with the reinterpretation of
>>> others' works, like the 18th century equivalent of a DJ.
>>>
>>> And therefore, the conductor is more about celebrity, and less about
>>> performance, than Girl Talk is, who performs his own original works
>>> live.
>>>
>>> In other words, the medium of performance has changed so much - from
>>> orchestra, to rock band, to banks of synths and drum machines, to a
>>> laptop
>>> - that the frame of reference has to change radically as well. The
>>> performance should be put in its proper contemporary context (and not
>>> misunderstood), which is that of a single guy using Ableton Live to play
>>> his music on stage in a performance setting.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 21:26:04 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:26:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221808o54e39a1o195faaa10ab6511a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>
	<49767.70.20.70.70.1224723493.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221808o54e39a1o195faaa10ab6511a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49817.70.20.70.70.1224725164.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

> You're comparing putting a CD into a CD player and training for two
> decades on an instrument.

That's right, I definitely *am* comparing the two.
The advancement in technology allows you to put a CD into a CD player to
play other people's music, whereas in the 18 century you had to hire an
orchestra. The result is the same, regardless of the training time or
preparation. The result, not the means or the process.

> I compose music with computers. I put CDs into CD players. I perform
> on instruments. They're not the same thing. They're only loosely
> comparable in that the end product is some sound.

No, the process and the means are not the same, but I wasn't addressing that.
I'm talking about a specific end result, which is the performance of
non-original music.
In both cases, it applies, regardless of the means. It's either original,
or it isn't, by definition.
You playing "Axel F" on your keyboard is the same as Manfred Honeck
conducting Beethoven
as far as the originality of the result is concerned.

However, the thing about postmodernist tendencies is that with techniques
such as sampling (going back to Dadaism, Gysin's cutups, musique concrete,
etc), and with the whole cultural shrug that almost everything's been done
or tried already (kind of the musical version of Nakayama's "End of
History" spiel), the boundary between what is your creativity and what is
someone else's creativity breaks down. This doesn't have to be treated at
length here - Negativland and Josh Oswald dealt with it, as did I'm sure
many term papers and dissertations in the '80s. In the 21st century, no
more musical originality will emerge from Western culture (have you heard
anything original from Generation Y? I haven't!) unless a new technology
that produces new, unheard sounds is invented (like say, the ability to
make people hear subsonics or supersonics with the aid of in-ear nanobots,
or something crazy like that). otherwise, all creativity will flow from
hybridization of the West with other cultures whose music still sounds new
to us. This is happening now.

But anyway, what Girl Talk does is compose music on computers, and then
play music on computers using a program that allows for live performance
(Ableton Live). He doesn't just push a play button as if it were a CD
player. Therefore he is not a DJ.

And the reason I drew the analogy between the DJ and the orchestra was to
draw you into the heat of the argument, to get you to realize that when
you are performing live in your band, you are doing the exact same thing
that Girl Talk is doing, which is performing your original music in real
time. Only the process is different.





From xopher.tm at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 21:50:45 2008
From: xopher.tm at gmail.com (Christopher tm)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:50:45 -0400
Subject: GirlTalk video
Message-ID: <fa7b9bc0810221850j11dbc104h6975c54fbe0a90e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:40 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:

> 1) no one forced you to watch all the way thru

No. Sadly, I was waiting for him to, you know, do something.

> 2) video has 60,000 more views than any video you've made.

At least some of whom were waiting for him to, you know, do something.
There could be a million views, I would still say "Yes, and...?" He's
pressing "Play" and (occasionally) fiddling with his mix. He may make
a hell of a mix tape (and sure it sounds like a bunch of dancey fun),
but, yeah... watching a DJ play records is watching a DJ play records.
He's entertaining people and he's apparently having some success at it
so more power to him, but I just watched a guy jump up and down next
to his laptop for five minutes. I don't want to get into a discussion
of what does or does not constitute "art" - not my place to dictate
and I prefer a very wide open definition thereof anyway - but while
GirlTalk's recorded output may be art, his live performance may not
be. Bottom line: The crowd at GirlTalk's show knew what they were
getting when they paid to see him. Not being familiar with his work, I
was not inspired by the video to seek him out. If he's ever playing in
town when I am in the mood for such I would certainly keep him in
mind, but it's not really my thing especially these days. On the
flipside, on a whim I saw Sunn O))) last year. Some (many) would argue
that what they do is not music per se, but their live performance was
the closest thing I have ever had to an actual religious experience.

Horrifying alternate response to "video has 60,000 more views than any
video you've made": Obviously, you're not familiar with my porn
career. (The ten remaining gothlisters just cried out in terror and
were suddenly silenced.)

...

> 3) seen any laptop electronic performances? if not, you need a better
> frame of reference because gregg's is way more entertaining than most.

Yes, and while there are a great many worth listening to, few are
really worth watching. For me. I don't presume to speak to any one
else's preferences.

Note: I'm on a new painkiller tonight so, while I have reread this
email twice, I am not positive that the words on the screen actually
mean what I want them to. Bear with me.

-- 
Christopher?

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 21:56:05 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:56:05 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <49817.70.20.70.70.1224725164.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221707j118e411cs35b06da4cf8cd86f@mail.gmail.com>
	<49767.70.20.70.70.1224723493.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221808o54e39a1o195faaa10ab6511a@mail.gmail.com>
	<49817.70.20.70.70.1224725164.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221856n487020bby7e0631c953d7ae7@mail.gmail.com>

The process is quite different. You're talking as if process is
meaningless. Process is meaningful. It's meaningful in a particular
way to the musician who is experiencing what it means to make music
with one's body, and it's also meaningful to the listeners. The
semiotics of listening to a stereo and listening to a musician are
completely different.

And there's also the basic, physical, fidelity issue. Even the best
concert speakers you'll ever find will not accurately or precicely
reproduce the sound and tactile experience of an instrument being
played right in front of you.

You keep talking about how the results are the same, whether played on
a CD or by a live band. But the results are much more nuanced than
simply comparing what the waveform of the sound is like as measured by
a microphone.

As for nothing original happening because it will all by hybridization
from here on out, it's always been hybridization. The Beatles were a
hybrid of American Rock and British songwriting. American Rock was a
hybrid of blues with the influence of the trap set, which was
developed for jazz. Jazz was a hybrid of... well we can go on and on
here. But saying that there's nothing truly new because it's all
hybrid now is meaningless. It's always a hybrid.

At any rate, Ableton is a spiffy little computer program. It's a very
simplified sequencer. And yes, one can theoretically play it live.
However, shuffling around a few sequences while on a stage and spazing
out is not the same thing as an orchestra performing, and drawing some
kind of equivalency between the two is just goofy.

I speak as someone who has real respect for the great turntablists.
But Ableton Live? Face it. That's kid's stuff. Comparing Ableton Live
to a real instrument is like comparing a child's play-doh sculpture to
The Statue Of Liberty. Sure, both are technically art, but of such
different degrees that trying to compare the two is just silly.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:26 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>> You're comparing putting a CD into a CD player and training for two
>> decades on an instrument.
>
> That's right, I definitely *am* comparing the two.
> The advancement in technology allows you to put a CD into a CD player to
> play other people's music, whereas in the 18 century you had to hire an
> orchestra. The result is the same, regardless of the training time or
> preparation. The result, not the means or the process.
>
>> I compose music with computers. I put CDs into CD players. I perform
>> on instruments. They're not the same thing. They're only loosely
>> comparable in that the end product is some sound.
>
> No, the process and the means are not the same, but I wasn't addressing that.
> I'm talking about a specific end result, which is the performance of
> non-original music.
> In both cases, it applies, regardless of the means. It's either original,
> or it isn't, by definition.
> You playing "Axel F" on your keyboard is the same as Manfred Honeck
> conducting Beethoven
> as far as the originality of the result is concerned.
>
> However, the thing about postmodernist tendencies is that with techniques
> such as sampling (going back to Dadaism, Gysin's cutups, musique concrete,
> etc), and with the whole cultural shrug that almost everything's been done
> or tried already (kind of the musical version of Nakayama's "End of
> History" spiel), the boundary between what is your creativity and what is
> someone else's creativity breaks down. This doesn't have to be treated at
> length here - Negativland and Josh Oswald dealt with it, as did I'm sure
> many term papers and dissertations in the '80s. In the 21st century, no
> more musical originality will emerge from Western culture (have you heard
> anything original from Generation Y? I haven't!) unless a new technology
> that produces new, unheard sounds is invented (like say, the ability to
> make people hear subsonics or supersonics with the aid of in-ear nanobots,
> or something crazy like that). otherwise, all creativity will flow from
> hybridization of the West with other cultures whose music still sounds new
> to us. This is happening now.
>
> But anyway, what Girl Talk does is compose music on computers, and then
> play music on computers using a program that allows for live performance
> (Ableton Live). He doesn't just push a play button as if it were a CD
> player. Therefore he is not a DJ.
>
> And the reason I drew the analogy between the DJ and the orchestra was to
> draw you into the heat of the argument, to get you to realize that when
> you are performing live in your band, you are doing the exact same thing
> that Girl Talk is doing, which is performing your original music in real
> time. Only the process is different.
>
>
>
>
>

From rapier1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 22:04:48 2008
From: rapier1 at gmail.com (Chris Rapier)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:04:48 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <17aa36ad0810221904s602b3820i892cb0dd912c6292@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:40 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:

> Because two people who didn't like me (one of whom some people on this
> list used to know quite well) convinced three others to go along with

Not me by the way.

From vort3xxx at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 22 22:08:55 2008
From: vort3xxx at earthlink.net (Wil Welsh)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:08:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: Girl Talk
Message-ID: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

To the previous topic, I'd like to mention that THD's remix of Lost Minds was great.  Highly capable remix artist.

As a very early adopter of digital DJ technologies I have a bit of experience on the topic.  You can script everything before a performance and just press play.  I did that a few times between 1997 & 1999 when I was first dabbling with it to highly negative results from the crowds.  You can also script everything so that you just press play when its time for the tracks to overlap, providing the illusion of performance.  This is what about most well regarded digital djs do these days.   With the beat grid in Traktor and the equivalent technology in Abelton (warp markers), you take about 85% of the guesswork out of DJ'ing.  All that's left is key selection, and tools like Allen & Heath's MixedInKey software are emerging that allow even tone deaf djs to come close to resolving that area of difficulty.  

The age is upon us where a dj can just press play and come out with great sounding stuff for hours on end, without much talent or genuine know-how.  Most aspects are mechanized and performance is optional or left to times when its most convenient.  Anymore, most dj sets are at semi-automated by default and DJs will just jump around and twiddle knobs to the extent that they don't cause a trainwreck and lose track of the stuff that the machine was doing for them.  Most of it is showmanship.  At least that's in other cities... half the time when I get out to a club in Pittsburgh, the dj's are typically chronically under skilled, with poor equipment, and apathetic to the point that they don't even try to beatmix, let alone more advanced stuff like harmonic boost mixing.

There is an interesting argument that the new software can allow for additional expressiveness unavailable to previous generations that includes creating music, and as such has blurred the lines between the two.  The fact that people are enabled to blur the line, however, doesn't mean that most people who tote a laptop (and the right software) to a gig is doing any such thing.   Ritchie Hawtin and DJ Donna Summer are good exmaples of stepping well over that line.  My ears aren't so sure that's the case with the latest Girl Talk album.  I didn't realize it was being promoted as a musical creation.  It sounds like a bunch of mashups generated by taking loops of pop music and mixing acapella versions over it.  Granted its done at a higher pace than the previous generation of dj albums (Coldcut's Journey's By Dj Vol. 1 comes to mind as an album with a similar character), but at the end of the day I don't hear anything that sounds like it was crafted from scratch.  That lone fact makes me skeptical that it genuinely  blurs the line between dj & artist like the first two gentlemen mentioned.

I've been contenplating the Leonardo da Vinci quote, "The supreme misfortune is when theory outstrips performance," when the subject of Girl Talk comes up.  I can never solidly decide if its great performance, or just fresh technique.   Since I'm versed with the tools of the trade, I often lean towards technique.  It seems to me, that most of his output is the result of careful music editing and mathematics rather than genuine creative flow.  

Now, contrast that semi-automated editing room output with what a character like Jeremy does during his gigs, and the grey area nearly disappears entirely with the additional contrast as reference.  

I don't know about 100% unwarranted celebrity though.  Girl Talk's stuff is way more intricate than any other dj work in the marketplace.  There has to be a way to sift the cream from the curd at the end of the day and I think Girl Talk's notarity is warranted to some degree.  I tend to reserve that specific judgement for the times when I come across gimmicks like the "topless rave dj" one.  Girl talk does have something special... even if its just a superior work ethic and a good tool box.  



From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 22:26:27 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:26:27 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221926k2ddf3ba7pddbb444277983569@mail.gmail.com>

"let alone more advanced stuff like harmonic boost mixing"

Ha! It would be beautiful if people cared about stuff like that, but
no one does. People's ears are not trained to care about that stuff.
There are a few of them out there, but that's it. The masses just want
to hear the hits and that's the end of it.

FWIW, when we perform we are using some automation. But there's a big
difference between some automation and a show which is virtually all
pre-set. You can say that Girl Talk sounds good, and I'd agree. You
can say that Girl Talk is popular and fun, and I'd also agree. But you
can't say that Girl Talk meaningfully *plays* anything *live.* Hitting
a few buttons every few minutes is not the same thing as playing an
instrument.

I'm not saying that his celebrity is unwarranted. He makes music that
people like, and so he's popular. All I'm saying is, he's not a
performing musician. He makes great mash-ups, and sometimes stands on
a stage and twiddles a few knobs with some very amateurish stagecraft.


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Wil Welsh <vort3xxx at earthlink.net> wrote:
> To the previous topic, I'd like to mention that THD's remix of Lost Minds was great.  Highly capable remix artist.
>
> As a very early adopter of digital DJ technologies I have a bit of experience on the topic.  You can script everything before a performance and just press play.  I did that a few times between 1997 & 1999 when I was first dabbling with it to highly negative results from the crowds.  You can also script everything so that you just press play when its time for the tracks to overlap, providing the illusion of performance.  This is what about most well regarded digital djs do these days.   With the beat grid in Traktor and the equivalent technology in Abelton (warp markers), you take about 85% of the guesswork out of DJ'ing.  All that's left is key selection, and tools like Allen & Heath's MixedInKey software are emerging that allow even tone deaf djs to come close to resolving that area of difficulty.
>
> The age is upon us where a dj can just press play and come out with great sounding stuff for hours on end, without much talent or genuine know-how.  Most aspects are mechanized and performance is optional or left to times when its most convenient.  Anymore, most dj sets are at semi-automated by default and DJs will just jump around and twiddle knobs to the extent that they don't cause a trainwreck and lose track of the stuff that the machine was doing for them.  Most of it is showmanship.  At least that's in other cities... half the time when I get out to a club in Pittsburgh, the dj's are typically chronically under skilled, with poor equipment, and apathetic to the point that they don't even try to beatmix, let alone more advanced stuff like harmonic boost mixing.
>
> There is an interesting argument that the new software can allow for additional expressiveness unavailable to previous generations that includes creating music, and as such has blurred the lines between the two.  The fact that people are enabled to blur the line, however, doesn't mean that most people who tote a laptop (and the right software) to a gig is doing any such thing.   Ritchie Hawtin and DJ Donna Summer are good exmaples of stepping well over that line.  My ears aren't so sure that's the case with the latest Girl Talk album.  I didn't realize it was being promoted as a musical creation.  It sounds like a bunch of mashups generated by taking loops of pop music and mixing acapella versions over it.  Granted its done at a higher pace than the previous generation of dj albums (Coldcut's Journey's By Dj Vol. 1 comes to mind as an album with a similar character), but at the end of the day I don't hear anything that sounds like it was crafted from scratch.  That lone fact
>  makes me skeptical that it genuinely  blurs the line between dj & artist like the first two gentlemen mentioned.
>
> I've been contenplating the Leonardo da Vinci quote, "The supreme misfortune is when theory outstrips performance," when the subject of Girl Talk comes up.  I can never solidly decide if its great performance, or just fresh technique.   Since I'm versed with the tools of the trade, I often lean towards technique.  It seems to me, that most of his output is the result of careful music editing and mathematics rather than genuine creative flow.
>
> Now, contrast that semi-automated editing room output with what a character like Jeremy does during his gigs, and the grey area nearly disappears entirely with the additional contrast as reference.
>
> I don't know about 100% unwarranted celebrity though.  Girl Talk's stuff is way more intricate than any other dj work in the marketplace.  There has to be a way to sift the cream from the curd at the end of the day and I think Girl Talk's notarity is warranted to some degree.  I tend to reserve that specific judgement for the times when I come across gimmicks like the "topless rave dj" one.  Girl talk does have something special... even if its just a superior work ethic and a good tool box.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From jet at flatline.net  Wed Oct 22 21:55:07 2008
From: jet at flatline.net (j. eric townsend)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:55:07 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <48FFD97B.8060504@flatline.net>

I'm sitting here wondering what someone who is thinking of moving to PGH 
and who has subscribed to pgh-goth makes of all this...

-- 
J. Eric "jet" Townsend, CMU Master of Tangible Interaction Design '09

design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net;  HF: KG6ZVQ
PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8

From epistemology at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 22:29:59 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:29:59 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <48FFD97B.8060504@flatline.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<48FFD97B.8060504@flatline.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810221929m2c00c127s81cae1a249720973@mail.gmail.com>

If someone is using the goth list to make a decision about what city
to move to, well, uh... Good luck to them!


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:55 PM, j. eric townsend <jet at flatline.net> wrote:
> I'm sitting here wondering what someone who is thinking of moving to PGH and
> who has subscribed to pgh-goth makes of all this...
>
> --
> J. Eric "jet" Townsend, CMU Master of Tangible Interaction Design '09
>
> design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net;  HF: KG6ZVQ
> PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From xopher.tm at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 22:34:04 2008
From: xopher.tm at gmail.com (Christopher tm)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:34:04 -0400
Subject: Nothing in PGH/Manny banned/etc. (was Re: THD - "evolution of our
	decay" album)
Message-ID: <fa7b9bc0810221934p11c9389ar4f61589f562cd8d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:55 PM, j. eric townsend <jet at flatline.net> wrote:
> I'm sitting here wondering what someone who is thinking of moving to PGH and
> who has subscribed to pgh-goth makes of all this...

Take GirlTalk out of it and this is essentially the same conversation
that was going when I subbed from San Diego in '99.

Seriously, I think I've finally come full-circle.

Then again, it could be the pills.

-- 
Christopher?

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Wed Oct 22 22:56:23 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:56:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.n
	et>
References: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <50299.70.20.70.70.1224730583.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Wil-

That was an amazing assessment, probably the best single post ever made on
this list
in the past ten years. Why can't more people post like that? Especially
love the reference to
Coldcut. And by the way, if you're talking about Donna Summer (who now
pretty much
goes under his own name Jason Forrest), it was in fact Gregg who said that
after Jason
saw Gregg jumping around with the laptop a couple years back, Jason may
have decided
to (in part) ape Gregg's live show with a similar demeanor. But this is
the thing: performers
that come out of the IDM or breakcore scenes, as Gregg and Jason both
have, do not consider
themselves to be 'DJs' per se, nor are they, unless they are specifically
doing a DJ set by only playing someone else's tracks.

And as far as the comparison between orchestra and DJ, once again, I was
only talking about
creative result. Not process, not semiotics, not acoustic nuances, the
difference between live instruments and sounds coming out of a speaker
(all of which are obvious differences).

And J, Eric, as far as what a new subscriber might think of Pghgoth if
they just subscribed, well I'd hope from the erudite discussion they'd
think well of the people here as being more than just
PVC-clad, tattooed, self-cutting absinthe drinkers flailing about to
thudthudthud :)

> To the previous topic, I'd like to mention that THD's remix of Lost Minds
> was great.  Highly capable remix artist.
>
> As a very early adopter of digital DJ technologies I have a bit of
> experience on the topic.  You can script everything before a performance
> and just press play.  I did that a few times between 1997 & 1999 when I
> was first dabbling with it to highly negative results from the crowds.
> You can also script everything so that you just press play when its time
> for the tracks to overlap, providing the illusion of performance.  This is
> what about most well regarded digital djs do these days.   With the beat
> grid in Traktor and the equivalent technology in Abelton (warp markers),
> you take about 85% of the guesswork out of DJ'ing.  All that's left is key
> selection, and tools like Allen & Heath's MixedInKey software are emerging
> that allow even tone deaf djs to come close to resolving that area of
> difficulty.
>
> The age is upon us where a dj can just press play and come out with great
> sounding stuff for hours on end, without much talent or genuine know-how.
> Most aspects are mechanized and performance is optional or left to times
> when its most convenient.  Anymore, most dj sets are at semi-automated by
> default and DJs will just jump around and twiddle knobs to the extent that
> they don't cause a trainwreck and lose track of the stuff that the machine
> was doing for them.  Most of it is showmanship.  At least that's in other
> cities... half the time when I get out to a club in Pittsburgh, the dj's
> are typically chronically under skilled, with poor equipment, and
> apathetic to the point that they don't even try to beatmix, let alone more
> advanced stuff like harmonic boost mixing.
>
> There is an interesting argument that the new software can allow for
> additional expressiveness unavailable to previous generations that
> includes creating music, and as such has blurred the lines between the
> two.  The fact that people are enabled to blur the line, however, doesn't
> mean that most people who tote a laptop (and the right software) to a gig
> is doing any such thing.   Ritchie Hawtin and DJ Donna Summer are good
> exmaples of stepping well over that line.  My ears aren't so sure that's
> the case with the latest Girl Talk album.  I didn't realize it was being
> promoted as a musical creation.  It sounds like a bunch of mashups
> generated by taking loops of pop music and mixing acapella versions over
> it.  Granted its done at a higher pace than the previous generation of dj
> albums (Coldcut's Journey's By Dj Vol. 1 comes to mind as an album with a
> similar character), but at the end of the day I don't hear anything that
> sounds like it was crafted from scratch.  That lone fact
>  makes me skeptical that it genuinely  blurs the line between dj & artist
> like the first two gentlemen mentioned.
>
> I've been contenplating the Leonardo da Vinci quote, "The supreme
> misfortune is when theory outstrips performance," when the subject of Girl
> Talk comes up.  I can never solidly decide if its great performance, or
> just fresh technique.   Since I'm versed with the tools of the trade, I
> often lean towards technique.  It seems to me, that most of his output is
> the result of careful music editing and mathematics rather than genuine
> creative flow.
>
> Now, contrast that semi-automated editing room output with what a
> character like Jeremy does during his gigs, and the grey area nearly
> disappears entirely with the additional contrast as reference.
>
> I don't know about 100% unwarranted celebrity though.  Girl Talk's stuff
> is way more intricate than any other dj work in the marketplace.  There
> has to be a way to sift the cream from the curd at the end of the day and
> I think Girl Talk's notarity is warranted to some degree.  I tend to
> reserve that specific judgement for the times when I come across gimmicks
> like the "topless rave dj" one.  Girl talk does have something special...
> even if its just a superior work ethic and a good tool box.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From rapier1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 23:09:53 2008
From: rapier1 at gmail.com (Chris Rapier)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:09:53 -0400
Subject: Nothing in PGH/Manny banned/etc. (was Re: THD - "evolution of our
	decay" album)
In-Reply-To: <fa7b9bc0810221934p11c9389ar4f61589f562cd8d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fa7b9bc0810221934p11c9389ar4f61589f562cd8d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17aa36ad0810222009t420623fbrab06f46a5989c391@mail.gmail.com>

Probably the pills. But that's half the fun.

This conversation? No fun. Time for more pills I'd think.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:34 PM, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:55 PM, j. eric townsend <jet at flatline.net> wrote:
>> I'm sitting here wondering what someone who is thinking of moving to PGH and
>> who has subscribed to pgh-goth makes of all this...
>
> Take GirlTalk out of it and this is essentially the same conversation
> that was going when I subbed from San Diego in '99.
>
> Seriously, I think I've finally come full-circle.
>
> Then again, it could be the pills.
>
> --
> Christopher?
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From synthdrome at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 23:10:44 2008
From: synthdrome at gmail.com (Shawn Rudiman)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:10:44 -0800
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <50299.70.20.70.70.1224730583.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <7532444.1224727735163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<50299.70.20.70.70.1224730583.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c1831eee0810222010x5338e0bbi17852bf698163b1@mail.gmail.com>

as far as a dj is concerned.. perhaps i hold to old standards : i like to
see djs use their talent (beat matching skills, track selections, mixer
tricks and style/flow) without the aid of pre matched, tuned and synced
recordings.  they can be  on whatever format they choose (vinyl, cd, or
.wav-final scratch).

everyone has their preferences. not all scenes/people/cliques/genres have
the same idea.

i personally prefer (personal preference ...like a favourite food) a dj to
not have the training wheels on.

shawn rudiman

From brian.j.parker at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 06:43:26 2008
From: brian.j.parker at gmail.com (Brian J. Parker)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:43:26 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6330f340810230343p51f4ce6fw87c0ee9914c6ce4a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW, the behavior surrounding Girl Talk is kind of interesting in
> that it's sort of a one-off experiment in the value of celebrity.

Andy Warhol (also a long-time Pittsburgher) would have loved Girl
Talk.  He also would have loved Paris Hilton, who was seen dancing on
stage at a Girl Talk Show.  I think he would have loved viral videos
on YouTube, too.

To bring this back to topic, the Warhol can also be a good resource,
if inconsistent.  I can't believe they brought French band Stereo
Total (and that I didn't know about the show until afterward).

From jet at flatline.net  Thu Oct 23 06:52:44 2008
From: jet at flatline.net (j. eric townsend)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:52:44 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221929m2c00c127s81cae1a249720973@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<48FFD97B.8060504@flatline.net>
	<c7200bce0810221929m2c00c127s81cae1a249720973@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4900577C.2020708@flatline.net>

Jeremy wrote:
> If someone is using the goth list to make a decision about what city
> to move to, well, uh... Good luck to them!

Move much?

Seriously, subbing to local mailing lists is a great way to determine if 
you want to move to a region.

-- 
J. Eric "jet" Townsend, CMU Master of Tangible Interaction Design '09

design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net;  HF: KG6ZVQ
PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Thu Oct 23 11:09:12 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re; the Warhol
In-Reply-To: <e6330f340810230343p51f4ce6fw87c0ee9914c6ce4a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<e6330f340810230343p51f4ce6fw87c0ee9914c6ce4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49498.70.17.169.49.1224774552.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>


The Warhol's presentations are not 'inconsistent'.

They are *varied*, and almost always at a high level - 'Wire-level', if
you understand what that means (it's become a common phrase over at the
NTMTO Board, thanks to my coining). It means
the kind of acts that you would read about in UK magazine The Wire, which
is the best music
mag in the world (the 2nd best is US-based Signal to Noise). Some, like
Matmos and Joanna Newsom, have been on the cover of the Wire before
playing the Warhol.

When an institution has a programmer that has the insight to bring quality
acts which vary
from The Mekons to Antibalas to Kahil El-Zabar (who was my suggestion, but
they took it!)
to Adult (the very band about whom my comments on the gothlist back around
1999 inspired some unknown individual to design that infamous post
generator, if you recall) and Matmos (another band which, as per our
discussion on Girl Talk, takes sampling to a high, arty level), that is
only a good thing, especially when he is willing to take losses on many of
these shows. He works within the same network that the Wexner in Columbus
and the Walker in Minneapolis program. There are only a handful of Midwest
funded institutions that have that programming insight, in other words,
and one of them is here. The curator at the Wood Street Gallery (a
different person) also helps on a smaller level as well, fronting some
small but important funding for the
use of experimental and jazz concerts at Space & WSG. Those guys are the
two bright spots in what would otherwise be considered an extremely
upscale approach to programming in the
Cultural District and its environs.

One of my few complaints is that the Warhol programmer often works within
a predictable stricture, avoiding what really would be independent
'curation' by relying on the rosters of maybe 6-7 hip booking agents. I
mean, the guy flew around the world to recruit acts for the International
Festival of Firsts, so you'd think he'd get on the computer or read a few
magazines and get some music acts at the Warhol who are not booking by
those agents. And sometimes, he also doesn't look around town to see what
other concerts he can avoid competing against, or which locals can open -
the Carnegie/Warhol is an island in itself that doesn't care about the
outside world - at least I *never* see the guy in the outside world,
*ever*. But just because I don't ever run into the dude at shows doesn't
mean he isnt doing his job - he definitely is. And then again, those
agents are also the ones with a ton of good acts so they're easy quality
pickings.

And now, you're also going to be able to benefit from his expertise at the
Three Rivers Arts
Festival, so the fest will start looking a bit more like Pitchfork each
year and a bit less like the boring middle-aged WYEP boomer songwriter
brigade. That's also a good thing - it raises the summer touring profile
for Pittsburgh, bands and agents notice that it's a place to play more
often.

None of which is going to help if your main goal is life is just to see
the likes of Wumpscut or VNV Nation. You'll have to keep supporting the
valiant Distortion Productions to get bands like that (and I hope people
supported the Imperative Reaction show, if they didn't go to Freezepop!).

But then I would hope that we are a varied erudite bunch on this list ir
we can drop names like
Matmos and Jason Forrest. :)

> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
>> FWIW, the behavior surrounding Girl Talk is kind of interesting in
>> that it's sort of a one-off experiment in the value of celebrity.
>
> Andy Warhol (also a long-time Pittsburgher) would have loved Girl
> Talk.  He also would have loved Paris Hilton, who was seen dancing on
> stage at a Girl Talk Show.  I think he would have loved viral videos
> on YouTube, too.
>
> To bring this back to topic, the Warhol can also be a good resource,
> if inconsistent.  I can't believe they brought French band Stereo
> Total (and that I didn't know about the show until afterward).
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From daniellebiconik at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 23 11:54:24 2008
From: daniellebiconik at yahoo.com (Danielle Biconik)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Matmos
In-Reply-To: <49498.70.17.169.49.1224774552.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
Message-ID: <102756.48833.qm@web50104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Anyone who plays a cow uterus as a tribute to Valerie Solanas is A-OK in my book (even w/ my vegetarian sensibilities). 
   
  The Matmos show at the Warhol earlier this year was simply tits.  Leprechaun Catering (opener) was also neat - I bought a fake boob from them that one of them signed, as well as a record with pretty arts on it. 
   
  Also, hi.
  That is all. 
   
   
  -Danielle
   
   
   

       

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Thu Oct 23 12:46:52 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:46:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Matmos
In-Reply-To: <102756.48833.qm@web50104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <49498.70.17.169.49.1224774552.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
	<102756.48833.qm@web50104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49760.141.151.173.160.1224780412.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>


Matmos played the Warhol *twice* in *two years*. No one else could have
afforded to bring them.
the Warhol did a very good thing.

However they did not bring Negativland. the Warhol once brought Mark
Hosler to do a lecture thingy but never brought the band. Instead, I did.
Two Halloweens ago, and lost some money on it. Good show also!

I remember specifically passing out Negativland flyers at the Warhol, and
the Warhol director Sokolowski (the only time I've ever talked to him)
asking what it was, and I explained there would probably *be* no Matmos
without Negativland. Despite Negativland's quite high profile in the
alternamedia in the '90s, he had no idea who they were at all. Yet because
Matmos were gay, he was all over them like a cheap suit. It was funny.

Danielle, you should check out Merzbow's tribute to the Society for
Cutting Up Men from as long as ago as maybe 20 years back (?). Doubt it's
still in print though. :)

Hi right back!
-mt

> Anyone who plays a cow uterus as a tribute to Valerie Solanas is A-OK in
> my book (even w/ my vegetarian sensibilities).
>
>   The Matmos show at the Warhol earlier this year was simply tits.
> Leprechaun Catering (opener) was also neat - I bought a fake boob from
> them that one of them signed, as well as a record with pretty arts on
> it.
>
>   Also, hi.
>   That is all.
>
>
>   -Danielle
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From anhedonia77 at comcast.net  Thu Oct 23 16:26:37 2008
From: anhedonia77 at comcast.net (John)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:26:37 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>

I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and 
it never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the 
music people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on 
it in case there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a 
band playing Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've 
noticed one thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed 
many, many times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him 
to respond to a message so they can bring up some shit that happened 
however many years ago. I don't know Manny on a personal level, only 
meeting him here or there at a show he is involved with. This discussion 
got me thinking about the shows I have gone to that Manny has been 
involved with and it made me realize that I have seen a ton of killer 
bands solely because he put the show together or brought the bands to 
Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that should have pulled 
decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh would rather sit 
at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and that the 
Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I really 
think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work he 
has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure, he 
may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I 
just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for 
a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for 
music in Pittsburgh.

John

Jeremy wrote:
> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
> a total fluke too.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>   
>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>> them. Good story.
>>>       
>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or even
>> remotely most of it)
>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then convince
>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well as
>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't have
>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my side
>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>
>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and what
>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>
>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served in
>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make the
>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do their
>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>> course.
>>
>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a message
>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made calls
>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings. Some
>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted the
>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as if
>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how is
>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone who
>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>
>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find import/indie
>> experimental/industrial
>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station never
>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget. Instead,
>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they would
>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under experimental,
>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station. The
>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the five
>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite well
>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while also
>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>
>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why would I
>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of supposed
>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>> kangaroo one.
>>
>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts (not
>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the impetus
>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other words,
>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a position
>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to give
>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people who
>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>
>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only instance
>> that could be brought up
>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could have
>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but I
>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other instances
>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one instance
>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about our
>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing do
>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another example.
>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>
>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by the
>> program director.
>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned about
>> it before, and that was
>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>> perfectly willing to accept
>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was certainly
>> not grounds for
>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station staff
>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>
>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true accusation
>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that semester.
>> And that's it.
>>
>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>
>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
>> station.
>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well for
>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done or
>> was falsely accused of.
>>
>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed threats.
>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely following
>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for banning
>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>
>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of it
>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>> incident and nothing more.
>>
>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the ban,
>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I wasn't
>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that time,
>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>> at that exact particular time.
>>
>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been in
>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved at
>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me having
>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab). Then
>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left the
>> station and never was heard from since.
>>
>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
>> there was no way of knowing
>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
>> and without recourse.
>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
>> wrong time, mixing it up
>> with the wrong people.
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>
>   

From epistemology at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 17:19:35 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:19:35 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>

Because there are a number of acts which don't come back to Pittsburgh
anymore because bad promoters have jerked them around.

When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
keep promoting shows.

Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.


On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and it
> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the music
> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in case
> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band playing
> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed one
> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond to a
> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many years ago.
> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there at a
> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the shows I
> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize that I
> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show together or
> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that
> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh
> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and
> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I
> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work
> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure, he
> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I just
> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a few
> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for music in
> Pittsburgh.
>
> John
>
> Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>> a total fluke too.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or even
>>> remotely most of it)
>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then convince
>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well
>>> as
>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't have
>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my side
>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>
>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and what
>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>
>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served in
>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make the
>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do their
>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>> course.
>>>
>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a message
>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made calls
>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings. Some
>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted the
>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as if
>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how is
>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone who
>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>
>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find import/indie
>>> experimental/industrial
>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station never
>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget. Instead,
>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they would
>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under experimental,
>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station.
>>> The
>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the
>>> five
>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite
>>> well
>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while also
>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why would
>>> I
>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of supposed
>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>> kangaroo one.
>>>
>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts (not
>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the impetus
>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>> words,
>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a position
>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to give
>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people who
>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>
>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only instance
>>> that could be brought up
>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could
>>> have
>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but I
>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other instances
>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one instance
>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about our
>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing
>>> do
>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another example.
>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>
>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by the
>>> program director.
>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>> about
>>> it before, and that was
>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was certainly
>>> not grounds for
>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>> staff
>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>
>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>> accusation
>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that semester.
>>> And that's it.
>>>
>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>
>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
>>> station.
>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well
>>> for
>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done
>>> or
>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>
>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed threats.
>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely following
>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>> banning
>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>
>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of it
>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>
>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the ban,
>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I wasn't
>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>> time,
>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>
>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been in
>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved
>>> at
>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>> having
>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab).
>>> Then
>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left
>>> the
>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>
>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
>>> there was no way of knowing
>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
>>> and without recourse.
>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>> with the wrong people.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From synthdrome at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 21:15:14 2008
From: synthdrome at gmail.com (Shawn Rudiman)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:15:14 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1831eee0810231815j6481172dvc4b0f0bcd2b38d1d@mail.gmail.com>

i have to say that manny is a dedicated individual.  we've all had our
moments in every scene. ive been here 10 years now and manny has been doing
shows relentlessly bringing everything imaginable for pghs listening
displeasure/please. (depends on your view). point is, theres very few people
who have done the same.  i have much respect for him.

shawn rudiman

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:

> Because there are a number of acts which don't come back to Pittsburgh
> anymore because bad promoters have jerked them around.
>
> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
> keep promoting shows.
>
> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and
> it
> > never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the music
> > people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
> case
> > there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band playing
> > Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed one
> > thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
> > times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond to
> a
> > message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many years
> ago.
> > I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there at
> a
> > show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the shows
> I
> > have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
> that I
> > have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show together
> or
> > brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that
> > should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh
> > would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and
> > that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I
> > really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the
> work
> > he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure,
> he
> > may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
> just
> > can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a few
> > things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for music
> in
> > Pittsburgh.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Jeremy wrote:
> >>
> >> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
> >> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
> >> a total fluke too.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
> >>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
> >>>> them. Good story.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
> even
> >>> remotely most of it)
> >>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
> >>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
> convince
> >>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well
> >>> as
> >>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
> have
> >>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
> side
> >>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
> >>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
> >>>
> >>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
> what
> >>> I was supposedly accused of:
> >>>
> >>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served
> in
> >>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
> >>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
> the
> >>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
> >>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
> >>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
> >>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
> their
> >>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
> >>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
> >>> course.
> >>>
> >>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
> >>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
> message
> >>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
> calls
> >>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
> Some
> >>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
> >>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
> the
> >>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as
> if
> >>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how
> is
> >>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone
> who
> >>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
> >>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
> >>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
> >>>
> >>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
> import/indie
> >>> experimental/industrial
> >>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
> never
> >>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
> Instead,
> >>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
> would
> >>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
> >>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
> experimental,
> >>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station.
> >>> The
> >>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the
> >>> five
> >>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite
> >>> well
> >>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
> also
> >>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
> >>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
> >>> and  everyone was being helped.
> >>>
> >>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
> >>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
> >>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
> would
> >>> I
> >>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
> >>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
> supposed
> >>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
> >>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
> >>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
> >>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
> >>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
> >>> kangaroo one.
> >>>
> >>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
> (not
> >>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
> impetus
> >>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
> >>> words,
> >>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
> position
> >>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
> >>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
> give
> >>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
> >>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
> >>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people
> who
> >>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
> >>>
> >>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
> instance
> >>> that could be brought up
> >>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
> >>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
> >>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
> >>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could
> >>> have
> >>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but
> I
> >>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
> instances
> >>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
> instance
> >>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
> >>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
> >>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about
> our
> >>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing
> >>> do
> >>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
> example.
> >>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
> >>>
> >>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by
> the
> >>> program director.
> >>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
> >>> about
> >>> it before, and that was
> >>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
> >>> perfectly willing to accept
> >>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
> certainly
> >>> not grounds for
> >>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
> >>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
> >>> staff
> >>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
> >>> who didn't have a show that semester.
> >>>
> >>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
> >>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
> >>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
> >>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
> >>> accusation
> >>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
> semester.
> >>> And that's it.
> >>>
> >>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
> >>>
> >>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
> >>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
> >>> station.
> >>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well
> >>> for
> >>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done
> >>> or
> >>> was falsely accused of.
> >>>
> >>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
> >>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
> threats.
> >>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
> >>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
> following
> >>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
> >>> banning
> >>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
> >>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
> >>>
> >>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
> >>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of
> it
> >>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
> >>> incident and nothing more.
> >>>
> >>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
> ban,
> >>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
> >>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
> >>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
> wasn't
> >>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
> >>> time,
> >>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
> >>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
> >>> at that exact particular time.
> >>>
> >>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
> >>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
> >>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been
> in
> >>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved
> >>> at
> >>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
> >>> having
> >>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
> >>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab).
> >>> Then
> >>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left
> >>> the
> >>> station and never was heard from since.
> >>>
> >>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
> >>> there was no way of knowing
> >>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
> >>> and without recourse.
> >>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
> >>> wrong time, mixing it up
> >>> with the wrong people.
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pgh-goth-list mailing list
> > pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> > http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From scque at ymail.com  Fri Oct 24 01:36:03 2008
From: scque at ymail.com (Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que))
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
Message-ID: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I cry when I think how posts like this COULD be appearing in my inbox on a weekly basis.? And you know what really amazes me???? It was generated by intelligent discussion (rather than complaining) and never degraded to bickering.? Wow.? 

As for subbing to a list to determine home-towniness...? makes sense to me.? 

But what doesn't make sense is what Batz and I have pointed out on numerous occasions: why must we always hear about events long after the reasonable window of time in which to make plans?? If there are 10 online blogs and email lists which serve the Pgh music scene (or even state-wide), a person should be able to read about it 10 times in the month before it actually happens... that at least.

Anyway, great discussion.... keep 'em coming!? 

~sc'Que? 





      

From jet at flatline.net  Fri Oct 24 08:45:53 2008
From: jet at flatline.net (j. eric townsend)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:45:53 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4901C381.6070105@flatline.net>

Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que) wrote:

> But what doesn't make sense is what Batz and I have pointed out on
>numerous occasions: why must we always hear about events long after the
>reasonable window of time in which to make plans? 

Me three.


-- 
J. Eric "jet" Townsend, CMU Master of Tangible Interaction Design '09

design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net;  HF: KG6ZVQ
PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8

From brian.j.parker at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 08:50:54 2008
From: brian.j.parker at gmail.com (Brian J. Parker)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:50:54 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e6330f340810240550h16390cbbt9aaed08a7f34c179@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:36 AM, Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que) <scque at ymail.com> wrote:
> But what doesn't make sense is what Batz and I have pointed out on numerous occasions: why must we always hear about events long after the reasonable window of time in which to make plans?

To be fair, that's not always the case.  It had been with The Warhol,
but I've discovered that you have to get onto the Carnegie Museums
mailing list to get the inside scoop on what's happening at The
Warhol.  (My wife recently got a museums membership.  She loves
dinosaurs.)

Elise's Playground and Distortion are pretty good about bombarding
typical channels well in advance.  Manny... is subjective, you have to
do legwork comparatively, but considering the sheer VOLUME of shows he
does he does a very good job of it.

People who aren't in the scene, or newbie promoters, often do a poor
job reaching out to most of the subculture.  There'll be a tiny little
ad in the City Paper, or they'll put something on their MySpace and
hand out a dozen fliers at a club night, and be mystified when nobody
will "support the scene."

Outsiders think promotion is 10% advertising, 50% booking, and 40%
glamor and VIP lounges; in truth, it's 85% advertising, 10% dealing
with booking agents, and 5% running around counting money and dealing
with soundmen while other people enjoy the show and bitch about how
much you suck as a promoter.  (I don't count in that total the time
spent at your day job because most goth promoters regularly lose money
on shows.)  Not that I'm bitter or anything.

From jdecay at att.net  Fri Oct 24 10:48:15 2008
From: jdecay at att.net (jdecay at att.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:48:15 +0000
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com><c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <102420081448.9572.4901E02F00090EFB0000256422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>

Agreed, when I think of the most amazing shows I've been to in Pittsburgh, a huge percentage of them were booked by Manny. Sanctum. Z'ev. Christian Death. SunShine Blind. Sorrow. Heck, the show that I will eternally kick myself for missing was his doing (Death In June). And that's not even including some of the awesome non-Goth shows he's done. 

J
-------------- Original message from John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net>: -------------- 


> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and 
> it never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the 
> music people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on 
> it in case there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a 
> band playing Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've 
> noticed one thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed 
> many, many times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him 
> to respond to a message so they can bring up some shit that happened 
> however many years ago. I don't know Manny on a personal level, only 
> meeting him here or there at a show he is involved with. This discussion 
> got me thinking about the shows I have gone to that Manny has been 
> involved with and it made me realize that I have seen a ton of killer 
> bands solely because he put the show together or brought the bands to 
> Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that should have pulled 
> decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh would rather sit 
> at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and that the 
> Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I really 
> think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work he 
> has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure, he 
> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I 
> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for 
> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for 
> music in Pittsburgh. 

From synthdrome at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 11:08:23 2008
From: synthdrome at gmail.com (Shawn Rudiman)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:08:23 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <102420081448.9572.4901E02F00090EFB0000256422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<102420081448.9572.4901E02F00090EFB0000256422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
Message-ID: <c1831eee0810240808j29fe00abt4395429560a396fa@mail.gmail.com>

when the hell did manny do death in june!?!?!?!?!?!

and how th fuck could i miss that. shit. shit shit. and one extra shit.

they may be weirdo's obessed with nazi crap, but they have made some
fantasticly depressing and beautiful music.

shawn



On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:48 AM, <jdecay at att.net> wrote:

> Agreed, when I think of the most amazing shows I've been to in Pittsburgh,
> a huge percentage of them were booked by Manny. Sanctum. Z'ev. Christian
> Death. SunShine Blind. Sorrow. Heck, the show that I will eternally kick
> myself for missing was his doing (Death In June). And that's not even
> including some of the awesome non-Goth shows he's done.
>
> J
> -------------- Original message from John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net>:
> --------------
>
>
> > I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and
> > it never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
> > music people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on
> > it in case there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a
> > band playing Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've
> > noticed one thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed
> > many, many times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him
> > to respond to a message so they can bring up some shit that happened
> > however many years ago. I don't know Manny on a personal level, only
> > meeting him here or there at a show he is involved with. This discussion
> > got me thinking about the shows I have gone to that Manny has been
> > involved with and it made me realize that I have seen a ton of killer
> > bands solely because he put the show together or brought the bands to
> > Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that should have pulled
> > decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh would rather sit
> > at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and that the
> > Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I really
> > think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work he
> > has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure, he
> > may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
> > just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
> > a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
> > music in Pittsburgh.
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From jdecay at att.net  Fri Oct 24 11:18:28 2008
From: jdecay at att.net (jdecay at att.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:18:28 +0000
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <102420081518.12549.4901E744000A059E0000310522243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>

Finding out about shows isn't that difficult, but it does take diligence. I make it my business to know about them for my zine (which, while a good resource for show listings, isn't much help to those that don't have the opportunity to pick it up) and because I deeply enjoy live music, and continually look for shows in Pittsburgh. In the past week alone, I've come across the following:
 
November 1 Praha Hotel (Tarentum) - Debutante, Myparasites, Viktim 
November 26 Club Cafe - Una De Luna, Tangerine, Venus in Furs, and Seven Color Sky 
November 19 Diesel - Rasputina

And that's not including all the shows I already have on the calendar. 

How about this - the next time I put an issue out, I swear that I will also post the full concert listing here and on LJ?

J


-------------- Original message from "Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que)" <scque at ymail.com>: -------------- 

> But what doesn't make sense is what Batz and I have pointed out on numerous occasions: why must we always hear about events long after the reasonable window of time in which to make plans?  If there are 10 online blogs and email lists which serve the Pgh music scene (or even state-wide), a person should be able to 
> read about it 10 times in the month before it actually happens... that at least. 
> 

From rapier1 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 11:18:38 2008
From: rapier1 at gmail.com (Chris Rapier)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:18:38 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <17aa36ad0810240818g6891a56clc4f12247d68078c8@mail.gmail.com>

As much as I've disagreed with many over ephemera over the years I've
always felt that he's a very distinct and positive force in the scene
here. Someone who is willing to use their encyclopedic knowledge of
music to take real risks. I really respect that and the work he's
done. Has he pissed off some bands over the years? Of course. Does
that diminish his impact in any way? No. You don't have to be a nice
guy, you just have to get shit done. Manny has gotten shit done.

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and it
> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the music
> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in case
> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band playing
> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed one
> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond to a
> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many years ago.
> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there at a
> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the shows I
> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize that I
> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show together or
> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that
> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh
> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and
> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I
> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work
> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure, he
> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I just
> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a few
> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for music in
> Pittsburgh.
>
> John
>
> Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>> a total fluke too.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or even
>>> remotely most of it)
>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then convince
>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as well
>>> as
>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't have
>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my side
>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>
>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and what
>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>
>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served in
>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and faithfully
>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make the
>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words. At
>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do their
>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>> course.
>>>
>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls from
>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a message
>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made calls
>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings. Some
>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted the
>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as if
>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how is
>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone who
>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>
>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find import/indie
>>> experimental/industrial
>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station never
>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget. Instead,
>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they would
>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with me
>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under experimental,
>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station.
>>> The
>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the
>>> five
>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite
>>> well
>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while also
>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being hurt
>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away, anyway)
>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a Rasputina
>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to taking
>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why would
>>> I
>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of supposed
>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All of
>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof or
>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>> kangaroo one.
>>>
>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts (not
>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the impetus
>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>> words,
>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a position
>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to give
>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people who
>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>
>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only instance
>>> that could be brought up
>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could
>>> have
>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but I
>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other instances
>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one instance
>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to be
>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about our
>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had nothing
>>> do
>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another example.
>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>
>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by the
>>> program director.
>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>> about
>>> it before, and that was
>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was certainly
>>> not grounds for
>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>> staff
>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>
>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>> accusation
>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that semester.
>>> And that's it.
>>>
>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>
>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
>>> station.
>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well
>>> for
>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually done
>>> or
>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>
>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the station
>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed threats.
>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst WRCT
>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely following
>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>> banning
>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>
>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of it
>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>
>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the ban,
>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I wasn't
>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>> time,
>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the two
>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>
>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station, or
>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say, two
>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been in
>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily involved
>>> at
>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>> having
>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was banned,
>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab).
>>> Then
>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left
>>> the
>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>
>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time, but
>>> there was no way of knowing
>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without warning
>>> and without recourse.
>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>> with the wrong people.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From epistemology at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 12:37:44 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:37:44 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810240937q676e4d4bk581be4304f0bf94a@mail.gmail.com>

"why must we always hear about events long after the reasonable window
of time in which to make plans?"

It's a promoters job to promote shows. If you're not hearing about
shows until after the fact, maybe that's because they're not being
promoted very well.


On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:36 AM, Sc'Eric (aka sc'Que) <scque at ymail.com> wrote:
> I cry when I think how posts like this COULD be appearing in my inbox on a weekly basis.  And you know what really amazes me???  It was generated by intelligent discussion (rather than complaining) and never degraded to bickering.  Wow.
>
> As for subbing to a list to determine home-towniness...  makes sense to me.
>
> But what doesn't make sense is what Batz and I have pointed out on numerous occasions: why must we always hear about events long after the reasonable window of time in which to make plans?  If there are 10 online blogs and email lists which serve the Pgh music scene (or even state-wide), a person should be able to read about it 10 times in the month before it actually happens... that at least.
>
> Anyway, great discussion.... keep 'em coming!
>
> ~sc'Que?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 13:15:51 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:15:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>


Thanks, John.

Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this list
in the past ten years,
there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a handful
of people the wrong
way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and my
trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times. Anything
else?
If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you that
it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying incidents
or blowing them out of proportion.

-mt

 Sure, he
> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
> music in Pittsburgh.


From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 13:26:13 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:26:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>


Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
record during the period
that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.

Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them exactly
what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough red
wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually agreed
on.

You're really good at making claims that never happened.
This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.

You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND - 
*underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while I
paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought you
'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
and your band
as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words, you
were paid that night
what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
next time.

Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.

Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't try
to backpedal on that).

If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do not
know to be true, am I?
Then you should do the same.

> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
> keep promoting shows.
>
> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and
>> it
>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the music
>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
>> case
>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>> playing
>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed one
>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
>> to a
>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many years
>> ago.
>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
>> at a
>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
>> shows I
>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
>> that I
>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show together
>> or
>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that
>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh
>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and
>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I
>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the
>> work
>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure,
>> he
>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>> just
>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a few
>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for music
>> in
>> Pittsburgh.
>>
>> John
>>
>> Jeremy wrote:
>>>
>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>>> a total fluke too.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
>>>> even
>>>> remotely most of it)
>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>>> convince
>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
>>>> well
>>>> as
>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
>>>> have
>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
>>>> side
>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>>
>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
>>>> what
>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>>
>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served
>>>> in
>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>>> faithfully
>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
>>>> the
>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
>>>> At
>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
>>>> their
>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>>> course.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
>>>> from
>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>>> message
>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
>>>> calls
>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
>>>> Some
>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
>>>> the
>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as
>>>> if
>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how
>>>> is
>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone
>>>> who
>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>>
>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>>> import/indie
>>>> experimental/industrial
>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
>>>> never
>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>>> Instead,
>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
>>>> would
>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
>>>> me
>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>>> experimental,
>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station.
>>>> The
>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the
>>>> five
>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite
>>>> well
>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
>>>> also
>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
>>>> hurt
>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>>> anyway)
>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>>> Rasputina
>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>>> taking
>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
>>>> would
>>>> I
>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>>> supposed
>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
>>>> of
>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
>>>> or
>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>>> kangaroo one.
>>>>
>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
>>>> (not
>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>>> impetus
>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>>> words,
>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>>> position
>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
>>>> give
>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people
>>>> who
>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>>
>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>>> instance
>>>> that could be brought up
>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could
>>>> have
>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but
>>>> I
>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>>> instances
>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>>> instance
>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
>>>> be
>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about
>>>> our
>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>>> nothing
>>>> do
>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>>> example.
>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>>
>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by
>>>> the
>>>> program director.
>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>>> about
>>>> it before, and that was
>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>>> certainly
>>>> not grounds for
>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>>> staff
>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>>
>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>>> accusation
>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>>> semester.
>>>> And that's it.
>>>>
>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>>
>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
>>>> station.
>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well
>>>> for
>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
>>>> done
>>>> or
>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>>> station
>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>>> threats.
>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
>>>> WRCT
>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>>> following
>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>>> banning
>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>>
>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of
>>>> it
>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>>
>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
>>>> ban,
>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
>>>> wasn't
>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>>> time,
>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
>>>> two
>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>>
>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
>>>> or
>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
>>>> two
>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been
>>>> in
>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>>> involved
>>>> at
>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>>> having
>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>>> banned,
>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab).
>>>> Then
>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left
>>>> the
>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>>
>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
>>>> but
>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>>> warning
>>>> and without recourse.
>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>>> with the wrong people.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 13:37:20 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:37:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <e6330f340810240550h16390cbbt9aaed08a7f34c179@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<e6330f340810240550h16390cbbt9aaed08a7f34c179@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49495.70.20.82.110.1224869840.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>


Say what? I post any G/I-relevant show on this list, I post it on the
livejournal (unless I have a co-promoter in which case they sometimes do),
and I flyer all relevant areas of the city weeks in advance. Then I make
sure the show is in the listings. And it's always posted on my website.
So, Subjective how? Because I don't make color postcards the vast majority
of which wind up sitting around and getting thrown out? Guess so!


 Manny... is subjective, you have to
> do legwork comparatively, but considering the sheer VOLUME of shows he
> does he does a very good job of it.


From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 13:41:06 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c1831eee0810240808j29fe00abt4395429560a396fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<102420081448.9572.4901E02F00090EFB0000256422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<c1831eee0810240808j29fe00abt4395429560a396fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49509.70.20.82.110.1224870066.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>


1997 with Boyd Rice and Scorpion Wind @ Synod Hall.

Recently celebrated my return to Synod Hall by the way, with that Ralph
Stanley concert.
Great show, but unfortunately it cost me $5680 in loss.

On another note, one of the members of Scorpion Wind who played that show
coincidentally now lives here! Moved here earlier this year. An Irish guy,
I forget his name. He was at a couple of recent Garfield Artworks shows of
a dark/folk nature. How cool is that?

-mt

> when the hell did manny do death in june!?!?!?!?!?!
>
> and how th fuck could i miss that. shit. shit shit. and one extra shit.
>
> they may be weirdo's obessed with nazi crap, but they have made some
> fantasticly depressing and beautiful music.
>
> shawn
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:48 AM, <jdecay at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Agreed, when I think of the most amazing shows I've been to in
>> Pittsburgh,
>> a huge percentage of them were booked by Manny. Sanctum. Z'ev. Christian
>> Death. SunShine Blind. Sorrow. Heck, the show that I will eternally kick
>> myself for missing was his doing (Death In June). And that's not even
>> including some of the awesome non-Goth shows he's done.
>>
>> J
>> -------------- Original message from John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net>:
>> --------------
>>
>>
>> > I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
>> and
>> > it never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>> > music people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on
>> > it in case there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of
>> a
>> > band playing Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years
>> I've
>> > noticed one thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been
>> flamed
>> > many, many times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him
>> > to respond to a message so they can bring up some shit that happened
>> > however many years ago. I don't know Manny on a personal level, only
>> > meeting him here or there at a show he is involved with. This
>> discussion
>> > got me thinking about the shows I have gone to that Manny has been
>> > involved with and it made me realize that I have seen a ton of killer
>> > bands solely because he put the show together or brought the bands to
>> > Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that should have pulled
>> > decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh would rather sit
>> > at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and that the
>> > Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I really
>> > think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the work
>> he
>> > has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure,
>> he
>> > may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>> > just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy
>> for
>> > a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good
>> for
>> > music in Pittsburgh.
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From brian.j.parker at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 13:42:39 2008
From: brian.j.parker at gmail.com (Brian J. Parker)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:42:39 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <49495.70.20.82.110.1224869840.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<e6330f340810240550h16390cbbt9aaed08a7f34c179@mail.gmail.com>
	<49495.70.20.82.110.1224869840.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
Message-ID: <e6330f340810241042tfba421n36e51364d5c532c9@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't say "subjective," I said "comparatively."  And you answered
yourself.  Elise/Distortion often announce months in advance, they
blanket places with full-color fliers (and Elise is putting ads in the
City Paper now)... I am usually sick of hearing about their show by
the time it comes up.  With you, you have to be paying attention,
that's all.  You don't need to be defensive.

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:37 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> Say what? I post any G/I-relevant show on this list, I post it on the
> livejournal (unless I have a co-promoter in which case they sometimes do),
> and I flyer all relevant areas of the city weeks in advance. Then I make
> sure the show is in the listings. And it's always posted on my website.
> So, Subjective how? Because I don't make color postcards the vast majority
> of which wind up sitting around and getting thrown out? Guess so!
>
>
>  Manny... is subjective, you have to
>> do legwork comparatively, but considering the sheer VOLUME of shows he
>> does he does a very good job of it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 14:05:33 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:05:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk, THD, etc...
In-Reply-To: <e6330f340810241042tfba421n36e51364d5c532c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1224777601.29319.pgh-goth-list@listless.org>
	<669443.76941.qm@web59810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<e6330f340810240550h16390cbbt9aaed08a7f34c179@mail.gmail.com>
	<49495.70.20.82.110.1224869840.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<e6330f340810241042tfba421n36e51364d5c532c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49536.70.20.82.110.1224871533.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>

> I didn't say "subjective," I said "comparatively."  And you answered
> yourself.  Elise/Distortion often announce months in advance, they
> blanket places with full-color fliers (and Elise is putting ads in the
> City Paper now)... I am usually sick of hearing about their show by
> the time it comes up.  With you, you have to be paying attention,
> that's all.  You don't need to be defensive.

I'm just explaining, that's all.

I'm not going to compare myself to anything Distortion does because Jim is
just an amazing guy and deserves nothing but praise. He is the
motherfucking king. Also, sometimes he and I collaborate on shows as well.

But what Elise does cannot exactly be compared to the way Jim and I put on
shows. With Elise, bands are auxiliary to the fetish event, like the way a
live P.A. would be secondary to a rave or a 10-minute appearance by a
rapper would be ancillary to a hiphop party. When Elise tries to put on a
pure concert (such as the recent System Syn) it doesn't work any better
than the ones I do, because there isn't any magical, untouched music
audience that she can reach which Jim and I cannot. The fetish crowd is a
different, more mainstream, and larger crowd than the ones going to shows,
and Elise has therefore probably determined that more money is needed to
be spent to reach those people.

I don't think there's any point throwing away hundreds of dollars on
wasted postcards and on City Paper ads when that is going to do very
little to increase the attendance for a music subgenre.

In fact, it would make more sense to take drives out to Hot Topics and The
Exchanges in the suburbs (by the way, I mail packages of posters to the
suburban Exchanges already) and pass out flyers at malls. That's where any
audience increase would come from, not from stacks of postcards
languishing in the South Side Beehive. But I don't know how well that
would work. From what I understand, Joe Presely tried to do some of that
suburban outreach when he was putting on shows (correct me if I'm wrong)
and it didn't really bear fruit.

Putting on shows is tough - putting on parties is a little easier. More
people overall like to go to parties than like to go to shows. Also, after
a party, a promoter doesn't have to do another one any time soon. Parties
can happen whenever. But anyone who does shows has to do them over and
over again on a regular schedule to accomodate touring dates (no one who
does one concert, and then waits a very long time to even put on one more
concert, can be taken seriously as a concert promoter) so it's a tougher
grind.


From epistemology at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 17:01:14 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:01:14 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>

Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?


On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
> record during the period
> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>
> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them exactly
> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough red
> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually agreed
> on.
>
> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>
> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while I
> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought you
> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
> and your band
> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words, you
> were paid that night
> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
> next time.
>
> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>
> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't try
> to backpedal on that).
>
> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do not
> know to be true, am I?
> Then you should do the same.
>
>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
>> keep promoting shows.
>>
>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing and
>>> it
>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the music
>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
>>> case
>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>>> playing
>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed one
>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
>>> to a
>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many years
>>> ago.
>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
>>> at a
>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
>>> shows I
>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
>>> that I
>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show together
>>> or
>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows that
>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in Pittsburgh
>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here and
>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows. I
>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on the
>>> work
>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years. Sure,
>>> he
>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>> just
>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a few
>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for music
>>> in
>>> Pittsburgh.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Jeremy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>>>> a total fluke too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops if
>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
>>>>> even
>>>>> remotely most of it)
>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to collude,
>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>>>> convince
>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
>>>>> well
>>>>> as
>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
>>>>> have
>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
>>>>> side
>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
>>>>> what
>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had served
>>>>> in
>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>>>> faithfully
>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
>>>>> the
>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out. Not
>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
>>>>> At
>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
>>>>> their
>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print up
>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>>>> course.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
>>>>> from
>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>>>> message
>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
>>>>> calls
>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
>>>>> Some
>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
>>>>> the
>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me, as
>>>>> if
>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But how
>>>>> is
>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for someone
>>>>> who
>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones. Station
>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>>>> import/indie
>>>>> experimental/industrial
>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
>>>>> never
>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>>>> Instead,
>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
>>>>> would
>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
>>>>> me
>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>>>> experimental,
>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the station.
>>>>> The
>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of the
>>>>> five
>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked quite
>>>>> well
>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
>>>>> also
>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
>>>>> hurt
>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>>>> anyway)
>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>>>> Rasputina
>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>>>> taking
>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
>>>>> would
>>>>> I
>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>>>> supposed
>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred - merely
>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
>>>>> of
>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
>>>>> or
>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>>>> kangaroo one.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
>>>>> (not
>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>>>> impetus
>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>>>> words,
>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>>>> position
>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack of
>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
>>>>> give
>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the music
>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed from
>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two people
>>>>> who
>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>>>> instance
>>>>> that could be brought up
>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one time,
>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I could
>>>>> have
>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck') but
>>>>> I
>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>>>> instances
>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>>>> instance
>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
>>>>> be
>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared about
>>>>> our
>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>>>> nothing
>>>>> do
>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>>>> example.
>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show by
>>>>> the
>>>>> program director.
>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>>>> about
>>>>> it before, and that was
>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> not grounds for
>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other useful
>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>>>> staff
>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening people,
>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a way
>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>>>> accusation
>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>>>> semester.
>>>>> And that's it.
>>>>>
>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from the
>>>>> station.
>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as well
>>>>> for
>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
>>>>> done
>>>>> or
>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>>>> station
>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>>>> threats.
>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
>>>>> WRCT
>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>>>> following
>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>>>> banning
>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that I
>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>>>
>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like, nor
>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part of
>>>>> it
>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
>>>>> ban,
>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I had
>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>>>> time,
>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
>>>>> two
>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
>>>>> or
>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
>>>>> two
>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have been
>>>>> in
>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>>>> involved
>>>>> at
>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>>>> having
>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>>>> banned,
>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power grab).
>>>>> Then
>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter) left
>>>>> the
>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>>>
>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
>>>>> but
>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>>>> warning
>>>>> and without recourse.
>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at the
>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>>>> with the wrong people.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Fri Oct 24 18:18:33 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>


I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized, you
must be talking
about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
Empire, and it would
have to be something goth.

I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I did
not present it or promote it.
If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what happened
financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but it
is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was not),
if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually do).
If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I have
done that many times.

If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?

I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
fulfilled over the past 20 years.

-mt

> Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
> then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
>> record during the period
>> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>>
>> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
>> exactly
>> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
>> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough
>> red
>> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
>> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
>> agreed
>> on.
>>
>> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
>> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>>
>> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
>> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while
>> I
>> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
>> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought
>> you
>> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
>> and your band
>> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words,
>> you
>> were paid that night
>> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
>> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
>> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
>> next time.
>>
>> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
>> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
>> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
>> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>>
>> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
>> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't
>> try
>> to backpedal on that).
>>
>> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do
>> not
>> know to be true, am I?
>> Then you should do the same.
>>
>>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
>>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
>>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
>>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
>>> keep promoting shows.
>>>
>>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
>>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
>>>> and
>>>> it
>>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>>>> music
>>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
>>>> case
>>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>>>> playing
>>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed
>>>> one
>>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
>>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
>>>> to a
>>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
>>>> years
>>>> ago.
>>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
>>>> at a
>>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
>>>> shows I
>>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
>>>> that I
>>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
>>>> together
>>>> or
>>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows
>>>> that
>>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
>>>> Pittsburgh
>>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here
>>>> and
>>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows.
>>>> I
>>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on
>>>> the
>>>> work
>>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
>>>> Sure,
>>>> he
>>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>>> just
>>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a
>>>> few
>>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>>> music
>>>> in
>>>> Pittsburgh.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Jeremy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>>>>> a total fluke too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> remotely most of it)
>>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
>>>>>> collude,
>>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>>>>> convince
>>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
>>>>>> side
>>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
>>>>>> served
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>>>>> faithfully
>>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out.
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
>>>>>> At
>>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
>>>>>> calls
>>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
>>>>>> Station
>>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>>>>> import/indie
>>>>>> experimental/industrial
>>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>>>>> Instead,
>>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>>>>> experimental,
>>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
>>>>>> station.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> five
>>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
>>>>>> hurt
>>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>>>>> anyway)
>>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>>>>> Rasputina
>>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>>>>> taking
>>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>>>>> supposed
>>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
>>>>>> merely
>>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>>>>> kangaroo one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
>>>>>> (not
>>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>>>>> impetus
>>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>>>>> position
>>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
>>>>>> give
>>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
>>>>>> music
>>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>>>>> instance
>>>>>> that could be brought up
>>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck')
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>>>>> instances
>>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>>>>> instance
>>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>>>>> example.
>>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> program director.
>>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> it before, and that was
>>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> not grounds for
>>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
>>>>>> useful
>>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>>>>> staff
>>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
>>>>>> people,
>>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>>>>> accusation
>>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>>>>> semester.
>>>>>> And that's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> station.
>>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>>>>> station
>>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>>>>> threats.
>>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
>>>>>> WRCT
>>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>>>>> banning
>>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like,
>>>>>> nor
>>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
>>>>>> ban,
>>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>>>>> involved
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>>>>> banned,
>>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
>>>>>> grab).
>>>>>> Then
>>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter)
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>>>>> warning
>>>>>> and without recourse.
>>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>>>>> with the wrong people.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From anhedonia77 at comcast.net  Fri Oct 24 18:31:15 2008
From: anhedonia77 at comcast.net (John)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:31:15 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
Message-ID: <49024CB3.8090704@comcast.net>

I always thought Fred deserved to be in jail haha. What's he in for? I 
remember a few years ago he was hanging out with some kid I knew and 
they both seemed to have one common interest, getting underage girls 
naked. I even saw a video he made of girls that could have been no older 
than 16 stepping out of the shower and shit. I walked out of the house 
and told them both they deserve to be someone's prison bitch. He then 
went on to state that jail time wouldn't affect him because, what's a 
few years when you're immortal.

John


> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?
>
> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
>
> -mt
>
>   
>   

From anhedonia77 at comcast.net  Fri Oct 24 22:27:47 2008
From: anhedonia77 at comcast.net (John)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:27:47 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
Message-ID: <49028423.9040907@comcast.net>

No problem Manny. I've never heard any concrete proof of anything major 
come out of these discussions. It always seemed like it was someone 
trying to make a big deal out of something small. Almost any promoter I 
know has been accused of some bullshit at one time or another and 95% of 
the time it was usually the bands fault. I've heard a lot of bands 
complain that they don't get enough for a show, but it's usually on them 
to sell the tickets to the show. If they don't sell a decent amount, 
they won't get paid what the other bands who did pull their weight were 
payed and they don't deserve to be. As for the comment about the knife 
incident. I don't know anything about it but if it was in self defense, 
I really don't have a problem with it.

John


> Thanks, John.
>
> Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this list
> in the past ten years,
> there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
> We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a handful
> of people the wrong
> way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and my
> trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times. Anything
> else?
> If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you that
> it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying incidents
> or blowing them out of proportion.
>
> -mt
>
>  Sure, he
>   
>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>> music in Pittsburgh.
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>
>   

From epistemology at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 23:42:24 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:42:24 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49028423.9040907@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<49028423.9040907@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810242042w3355880fp35f53de371caec57@mail.gmail.com>

"I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't get enough for a
show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the show."

I'm not sure what you're talking about there. It's a promoter's job to
promote a show. It's a band's job to play a show. Bands make music.
Promoters sell tickets. If bands sold tickets themselves, they
wouldn't need promoters.


On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
> No problem Manny. I've never heard any concrete proof of anything major come
> out of these discussions. It always seemed like it was someone trying to
> make a big deal out of something small. Almost any promoter I know has been
> accused of some bullshit at one time or another and 95% of the time it was
> usually the bands fault. I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't
> get enough for a show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the
> show. If they don't sell a decent amount, they won't get paid what the other
> bands who did pull their weight were payed and they don't deserve to be. As
> for the comment about the knife incident. I don't know anything about it but
> if it was in self defense, I really don't have a problem with it.
>
> John
>
>
>> Thanks, John.
>>
>> Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this list
>> in the past ten years,
>> there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
>> We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a handful
>> of people the wrong
>> way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and my
>> trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times. Anything
>> else?
>> If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you that
>> it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying incidents
>> or blowing them out of proportion.
>>
>> -mt
>>
>>  Sure, he
>>
>>>
>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>>> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>> music in Pittsburgh.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From anhedonia77 at comcast.net  Sat Oct 25 00:13:14 2008
From: anhedonia77 at comcast.net (John)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:13:14 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810242042w3355880fp35f53de371caec57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>	<c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com>	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>	<49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>	<49028423.9040907@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810242042w3355880fp35f53de371caec57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49029CDA.1020700@comcast.net>

I realize it is a promoter's job to promote a show and I typed my 
response out wrong. What I meant to say was that it's usually on them to 
sell some of the tickets to the show. You've never been to one where the 
bands had a certain amount of tickets to sell on their own? I still 
think a band that wants a decent audience at their show should take it 
on themselves to get the word out as well. I'm not in a band but if I 
was I would never rely solely on the promoter, no matter how good they 
are, to bring people to the show.

John

Jeremy wrote:
> "I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't get enough for a
> show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the show."
>
> I'm not sure what you're talking about there. It's a promoter's job to
> promote a show. It's a band's job to play a show. Bands make music.
> Promoters sell tickets. If bands sold tickets themselves, they
> wouldn't need promoters.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>   
>> No problem Manny. I've never heard any concrete proof of anything major come
>> out of these discussions. It always seemed like it was someone trying to
>> make a big deal out of something small. Almost any promoter I know has been
>> accused of some bullshit at one time or another and 95% of the time it was
>> usually the bands fault. I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't
>> get enough for a show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the
>> show. If they don't sell a decent amount, they won't get paid what the other
>> bands who did pull their weight were payed and they don't deserve to be. As
>> for the comment about the knife incident. I don't know anything about it but
>> if it was in self defense, I really don't have a problem with it.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Thanks, John.
>>>
>>> Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this list
>>> in the past ten years,
>>> there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
>>> We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a handful
>>> of people the wrong
>>> way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and my
>>> trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times. Anything
>>> else?
>>> If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you that
>>> it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying incidents
>>> or blowing them out of proportion.
>>>
>>> -mt
>>>
>>>  Sure, he
>>>
>>>       
>>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>>> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>>>> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>>> music in Pittsburgh.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>
>   

From epistemology at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 00:34:02 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:34:02 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49029CDA.1020700@comcast.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<49028423.9040907@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810242042w3355880fp35f53de371caec57@mail.gmail.com>
	<49029CDA.1020700@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810242134m27ae3d27uaba8941994a94ca5@mail.gmail.com>

If a promoter asked me to sell tickets to a show that I was playing
in, I'd say, "If you need me to sell tickets, what do I need you for?
I don't need you to help me play, and you shouldn't need me to help
you do your job." It's generally an unprofessional promoter who will
try to get bands to sell tickets, or who will blame a band for a lousy
turnout.

I mean, think about it. When a band tours, how in the world is that
band supposed to get people to buy tickets in a town that they have
never even been to yet? If I'm going to play a show in Seattle, how in
the world am I, while in Pittsburgh, supposed to get people in Seattle
to buy tickets? That's the entire reason you get a promoter in that
city. To get people to buy tickets to the show. That's the promoter's
first, and biggest job. I can pick up the phone and schedule a time at
a venue just as easily as anybody else could. It's not hard. It takes
about three minutes. That's not what a promoter is paid for. A
promoter is paid to promote.

Some promoters take out big ads in periodicals, put up large
attractive color posters all over town, distribute attractive
professionally made fliers at key locations with the assistance of a
street team, get radio coverage, and then consistently get people to
arrive to see bands play. Other promoters hand out shitty black and
white fliers at arbitrary locations at weird times, maybe post to an
e-mail list now and then, and then blame the band who just drove into
town that afternoon when nobody arrives to see the show. Sometimes
they also blame those damned lazy music fans for not seeking out
information about which bands are playing where. And sometimes they
decide that bands don't actually deserve any money for hauling their
asses into town and doing their job.


On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:13 AM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I realize it is a promoter's job to promote a show and I typed my response
> out wrong. What I meant to say was that it's usually on them to sell some of
> the tickets to the show. You've never been to one where the bands had a
> certain amount of tickets to sell on their own? I still think a band that
> wants a decent audience at their show should take it on themselves to get
> the word out as well. I'm not in a band but if I was I would never rely
> solely on the promoter, no matter how good they are, to bring people to the
> show.
>
> John
>
> Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> "I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't get enough for a
>> show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the show."
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're talking about there. It's a promoter's job to
>> promote a show. It's a band's job to play a show. Bands make music.
>> Promoters sell tickets. If bands sold tickets themselves, they
>> wouldn't need promoters.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> No problem Manny. I've never heard any concrete proof of anything major
>>> come
>>> out of these discussions. It always seemed like it was someone trying to
>>> make a big deal out of something small. Almost any promoter I know has
>>> been
>>> accused of some bullshit at one time or another and 95% of the time it
>>> was
>>> usually the bands fault. I've heard a lot of bands complain that they
>>> don't
>>> get enough for a show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to
>>> the
>>> show. If they don't sell a decent amount, they won't get paid what the
>>> other
>>> bands who did pull their weight were payed and they don't deserve to be.
>>> As
>>> for the comment about the knife incident. I don't know anything about it
>>> but
>>> if it was in self defense, I really don't have a problem with it.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, John.
>>>>
>>>> Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this list
>>>> in the past ten years,
>>>> there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
>>>> We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a
>>>> handful
>>>> of people the wrong
>>>> way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and my
>>>> trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times. Anything
>>>> else?
>>>> If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you that
>>>> it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying
>>>> incidents
>>>> or blowing them out of proportion.
>>>>
>>>> -mt
>>>>
>>>>  Sure, he
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>>>> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>>>>> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>>>> music in Pittsburgh.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From jdecay at att.net  Sat Oct 25 09:33:11 2008
From: jdecay at att.net (jdecay at att.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:33:11 +0000
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com><fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com><c7200bce0810221506n19a9907ew41745931231ee13e@mail.gmail.com><49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com><c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com><49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com><c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com><4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net><c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com><49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com><c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
Message-ID: <102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>


 
 The Empire Hideous actually just called it quits this year (granted, it's not the first time they've done that), which is a shame. That was one quality act, one that deserved the fame that pop-Goth bands like The Cruxshadows have.

We actually booked Empire Hideous and Vampire Nation in York, PA on the following night to a crowd of 60 - 80 people. Nobody mentioned any shady dealings the prior night, and I don't believe Myke Hideous mentioned anything in his autobiography (other than the utter state of filth of Fred's place). I could be wrong about events (not having been at the Pluto's show), but their booking agent also made sure that contracts (including guarantee) were signed beforehand, too.
 -------------- Original message from manny at garfieldartworks.com: --------------


> 
> I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized, you
> must be talking
> about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
> Empire, and it would
> have to be something goth.
> 
> I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I did
> not present it or promote it.
> If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
> Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
> fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what happened
> financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but it
> is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
> touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was not),
> if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually do).
> If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I have
> done that many times.
> 
> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?
> 
> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
> 
> -mt
> 
> > Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
> > then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,   wrote:
> >>
> >> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
> >> record during the period
> >> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
> >>
> >> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
> >> exactly
> >> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
> >> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough
> >> red
> >> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
> >> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
> >> agreed
> >> on.
> >>
> >> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
> >> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
> >>
> >> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
> >> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while
> >> I
> >> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
> >> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought
> >> you
> >> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
> >> and your band
> >> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words,
> >> you
> >> were paid that night
> >> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
> >> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
> >> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
> >> next time.
> >>
> >> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
> >> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
> >> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
> >> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
> >>
> >> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
> >> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't
> >> try
> >> to backpedal on that).
> >>
> >> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do
> >> not
> >> know to be true, am I?
> >> Then you should do the same.
> >>
> >>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
> >>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
> >>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
> >>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
> >>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
> >>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
> >>> keep promoting shows.
> >>>
> >>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
> >>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John  wrote:
> >>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
> >>>> and
> >>>> it
> >>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
> >>>> music
> >>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
> >>>> case
> >>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
> >>>> playing
> >>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed
> >>>> one
> >>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
> >>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
> >>>> to a
> >>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
> >>>> years
> >>>> ago.
> >>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
> >>>> at a
> >>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
> >>>> shows I
> >>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
> >>>> that I
> >>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
> >>>> together
> >>>> or
> >>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows
> >>>> that
> >>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
> >>>> Pittsburgh
> >>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here
> >>>> and
> >>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows.
> >>>> I
> >>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on
> >>>> the
> >>>> work
> >>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
> >>>> Sure,
> >>>> he
> >>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
> >>>> just
> >>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a
> >>>> few
> >>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
> >>>> music
> >>>> in
> >>>> Pittsburgh.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeremy wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
> >>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
> >>>>> a total fluke too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,   wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
> >>>>>>> them. Good story.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
> >>>>>> even
> >>>>>> remotely most of it)
> >>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
> >>>>>> collude,
> >>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
> >>>>>> convince
> >>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
> >>>>>> side
> >>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
> >>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
> >>>>>> what
> >>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
> >>>>>> served
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
> >>>>>> faithfully
> >>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
> >>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out.
> >>>>>> Not
> >>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
> >>>>>> At
> >>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print
> >>>>>> up
> >>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
> >>>>>> course.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
> >>>>>> message
> >>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
> >>>>>> calls
> >>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
> >>>>>> Some
> >>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
> >>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me,
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>> if
> >>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But
> >>>>>> how
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
> >>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
> >>>>>> Station
> >>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
> >>>>>> import/indie
> >>>>>> experimental/industrial
> >>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
> >>>>>> never
> >>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
> >>>>>> Instead,
> >>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
> >>>>>> me
> >>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
> >>>>>> experimental,
> >>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
> >>>>>> station.
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> five
> >>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
> >>>>>> quite
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
> >>>>>> also
> >>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
> >>>>>> hurt
> >>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
> >>>>>> anyway)
> >>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
> >>>>>> Rasputina
> >>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
> >>>>>> taking
> >>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
> >>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
> >>>>>> supposed
> >>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
> >>>>>> merely
> >>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
> >>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
> >>>>>> kangaroo one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
> >>>>>> (not
> >>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
> >>>>>> impetus
> >>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
> >>>>>> words,
> >>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
> >>>>>> position
> >>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
> >>>>>> give
> >>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
> >>>>>> music
> >>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
> >>>>>> instance
> >>>>>> that could be brought up
> >>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
> >>>>>> time,
> >>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
> >>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
> >>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
> >>>>>> could
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck')
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
> >>>>>> instances
> >>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
> >>>>>> instance
> >>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
> >>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> our
> >>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
> >>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>> do
> >>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
> >>>>>> example.
> >>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> program director.
> >>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> it before, and that was
> >>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
> >>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
> >>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
> >>>>>> certainly
> >>>>>> not grounds for
> >>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
> >>>>>> useful
> >>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
> >>>>>> staff
> >>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
> >>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
> >>>>>> people,
> >>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
> >>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a
> >>>>>> way
> >>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
> >>>>>> accusation
> >>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
> >>>>>> semester.
> >>>>>> And that's it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
> >>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> station.
> >>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
> >>>>>> done
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> was falsely accused of.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
> >>>>>> station
> >>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
> >>>>>> threats.
> >>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
> >>>>>> WRCT
> >>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
> >>>>>> following
> >>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
> >>>>>> banning
> >>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like,
> >>>>>> nor
> >>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
> >>>>>> incident and nothing more.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
> >>>>>> ban,
> >>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I
> >>>>>> had
> >>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
> >>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
> >>>>>> wasn't
> >>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
> >>>>>> time,
> >>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
> >>>>>> at that exact particular time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
> >>>>>> involved
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
> >>>>>> having
> >>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
> >>>>>> banned,
> >>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
> >>>>>> grab).
> >>>>>> Then
> >>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter)
> >>>>>> left
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> there was no way of knowing
> >>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
> >>>>>> warning
> >>>>>> and without recourse.
> >>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
> >>>>>> with the wrong people.
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > pgh-goth-list mailing list
> > pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> > http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list

From epistemology at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 11:56:28 2008
From: epistemology at gmail.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:56:28 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
Message-ID: <c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I was talking about a different band anyway, but there's no
point in continuing the conversation. People who want to believe that
Manny can do no wrong will do so no matter what.

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:33 AM,  <jdecay at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>  The Empire Hideous actually just called it quits this year (granted, it's not the first time they've done that), which is a shame. That was one quality act, one that deserved the fame that pop-Goth bands like The Cruxshadows have.
>
> We actually booked Empire Hideous and Vampire Nation in York, PA on the following night to a crowd of 60 - 80 people. Nobody mentioned any shady dealings the prior night, and I don't believe Myke Hideous mentioned anything in his autobiography (other than the utter state of filth of Fred's place). I could be wrong about events (not having been at the Pluto's show), but their booking agent also made sure that contracts (including guarantee) were signed beforehand, too.
>  -------------- Original message from manny at garfieldartworks.com: --------------
>
>
>>
>> I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized, you
>> must be talking
>> about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
>> Empire, and it would
>> have to be something goth.
>>
>> I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I did
>> not present it or promote it.
>> If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
>> Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
>> fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what happened
>> financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but it
>> is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
>> touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was not),
>> if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually do).
>> If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I have
>> done that many times.
>>
>> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
>> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
>> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
>> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
>> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
>> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?
>>
>> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
>> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
>> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
>> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
>> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
>> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
>>
>> -mt
>>
>> > Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
>> > then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,   wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
>> >> record during the period
>> >> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>> >>
>> >> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
>> >> exactly
>> >> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
>> >> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough
>> >> red
>> >> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
>> >> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
>> >> agreed
>> >> on.
>> >>
>> >> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
>> >> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>> >>
>> >> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
>> >> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while
>> >> I
>> >> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
>> >> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought
>> >> you
>> >> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
>> >> and your band
>> >> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words,
>> >> you
>> >> were paid that night
>> >> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
>> >> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
>> >> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
>> >> next time.
>> >>
>> >> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
>> >> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
>> >> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
>> >> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>> >>
>> >> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
>> >> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't
>> >> try
>> >> to backpedal on that).
>> >>
>> >> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do
>> >> not
>> >> know to be true, am I?
>> >> Then you should do the same.
>> >>
>> >>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>> >>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
>> >>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
>> >>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>> >>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
>> >>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
>> >>> keep promoting shows.
>> >>>
>> >>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
>> >>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John  wrote:
>> >>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> it
>> >>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>> >>>> music
>> >>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
>> >>>> case
>> >>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>> >>>> playing
>> >>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed
>> >>>> one
>> >>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
>> >>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
>> >>>> to a
>> >>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
>> >>>> years
>> >>>> ago.
>> >>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
>> >>>> at a
>> >>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
>> >>>> shows I
>> >>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
>> >>>> that I
>> >>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
>> >>>> together
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
>> >>>> Pittsburgh
>> >>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows.
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> work
>> >>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
>> >>>> Sure,
>> >>>> he
>> >>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>> >>>> just
>> >>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a
>> >>>> few
>> >>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>> >>>> music
>> >>>> in
>> >>>> Pittsburgh.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jeremy wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>> >>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>> >>>>> a total fluke too.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,   wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops
>> >>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>> >>>>>>> them. Good story.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
>> >>>>>> even
>> >>>>>> remotely most of it)
>> >>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
>> >>>>>> collude,
>> >>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>> >>>>>> convince
>> >>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
>> >>>>>> well
>> >>>>>> as
>> >>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
>> >>>>>> side
>> >>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>> >>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
>> >>>>>> what
>> >>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
>> >>>>>> served
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>> >>>>>> faithfully
>> >>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>> >>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out.
>> >>>>>> Not
>> >>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
>> >>>>>> At
>> >>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
>> >>>>>> their
>> >>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print
>> >>>>>> up
>> >>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>> >>>>>> course.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
>> >>>>>> from
>> >>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>> >>>>>> message
>> >>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
>> >>>>>> calls
>> >>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
>> >>>>>> Some
>> >>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>> >>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me,
>> >>>>>> as
>> >>>>>> if
>> >>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But
>> >>>>>> how
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
>> >>>>>> someone
>> >>>>>> who
>> >>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>> >>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
>> >>>>>> Station
>> >>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>> >>>>>> import/indie
>> >>>>>> experimental/industrial
>> >>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
>> >>>>>> never
>> >>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>> >>>>>> Instead,
>> >>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
>> >>>>>> would
>> >>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
>> >>>>>> me
>> >>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>> >>>>>> experimental,
>> >>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
>> >>>>>> station.
>> >>>>>> The
>> >>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> five
>> >>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
>> >>>>>> quite
>> >>>>>> well
>> >>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
>> >>>>>> also
>> >>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
>> >>>>>> hurt
>> >>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>> >>>>>> anyway)
>> >>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>> >>>>>> Rasputina
>> >>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>> >>>>>> taking
>> >>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
>> >>>>>> would
>> >>>>>> I
>> >>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>> >>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>> >>>>>> supposed
>> >>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
>> >>>>>> merely
>> >>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>> >>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
>> >>>>>> or
>> >>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>> >>>>>> kangaroo one.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
>> >>>>>> (not
>> >>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>> >>>>>> impetus
>> >>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>> >>>>>> words,
>> >>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>> >>>>>> position
>> >>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
>> >>>>>> give
>> >>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
>> >>>>>> music
>> >>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
>> >>>>>> from
>> >>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
>> >>>>>> people
>> >>>>>> who
>> >>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>> >>>>>> instance
>> >>>>>> that could be brought up
>> >>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
>> >>>>>> time,
>> >>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>> >>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>> >>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
>> >>>>>> could
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck')
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>> I
>> >>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>> >>>>>> instances
>> >>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>> >>>>>> instance
>> >>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
>> >>>>>> be
>> >>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>> >>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
>> >>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> our
>> >>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>> >>>>>> nothing
>> >>>>>> do
>> >>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>> >>>>>> example.
>> >>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show
>> >>>>>> by
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> program director.
>> >>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>> >>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> it before, and that was
>> >>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>> >>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>> >>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>> >>>>>> certainly
>> >>>>>> not grounds for
>> >>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
>> >>>>>> useful
>> >>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>> >>>>>> staff
>> >>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>> >>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
>> >>>>>> people,
>> >>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>> >>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a
>> >>>>>> way
>> >>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>> >>>>>> accusation
>> >>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>> >>>>>> semester.
>> >>>>>> And that's it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>> >>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> station.
>> >>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as
>> >>>>>> well
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
>> >>>>>> done
>> >>>>>> or
>> >>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>> >>>>>> station
>> >>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>> >>>>>> threats.
>> >>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
>> >>>>>> WRCT
>> >>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>> >>>>>> following
>> >>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>> >>>>>> banning
>> >>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that
>> >>>>>> I
>> >>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like,
>> >>>>>> nor
>> >>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> it
>> >>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>> >>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
>> >>>>>> ban,
>> >>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I
>> >>>>>> had
>> >>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>> >>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
>> >>>>>> wasn't
>> >>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>> >>>>>> time,
>> >>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
>> >>>>>> two
>> >>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>> >>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
>> >>>>>> or
>> >>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
>> >>>>>> two
>> >>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have
>> >>>>>> been
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>> >>>>>> involved
>> >>>>>> at
>> >>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>> >>>>>> having
>> >>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>> >>>>>> banned,
>> >>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
>> >>>>>> grab).
>> >>>>>> Then
>> >>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter)
>> >>>>>> left
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>> >>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>> >>>>>> warning
>> >>>>>> and without recourse.
>> >>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>> >>>>>> with the wrong people.
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> >>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> >>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> >>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> >>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> >>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> >>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> >>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> >> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> >> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> > pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> > http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>

From rapier1 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 23:14:50 2008
From: rapier1 at gmail.com (Chris Rapier)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:14:50 -0400
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17aa36ad0810252014x1fc1d3d3l2705126ddbaaa687@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I was talking about a different band anyway, but there's no
> point in continuing the conversation. People who want to believe that
> Manny can do no wrong will do so no matter what.

And people who think he's evil will continue to do so no matter what.
So it goes. Poo-too-weet.

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Sun Oct 26 15:31:05 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49615.70.20.82.110.1225049465.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>


You were talking about a different band?

Then who the heck is "Empire" then?
I never did a show for a band called "Empire".

People who want to continue to believe that you are not making random shit
up to suit your
unfounded accusations about me can continue to do so.

-mt

> Well, I was talking about a different band anyway, but there's no
> point in continuing the conversation. People who want to believe that
> Manny can do no wrong will do so no matter what.
>
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:33 AM,  <jdecay at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  The Empire Hideous actually just called it quits this year (granted,
>> it's not the first time they've done that), which is a shame. That was
>> one quality act, one that deserved the fame that pop-Goth bands like
>> The Cruxshadows have.
>>
>> We actually booked Empire Hideous and Vampire Nation in York, PA on the
>> following night to a crowd of 60 - 80 people. Nobody mentioned any shady
>> dealings the prior night, and I don't believe Myke Hideous mentioned
>> anything in his autobiography (other than the utter state of filth of
>> Fred's place). I could be wrong about events (not having been at the
>> Pluto's show), but their booking agent also made sure that contracts
>> (including guarantee) were signed beforehand, too.
>>  -------------- Original message from manny at garfieldartworks.com:
>> --------------
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized,
>>> you
>>> must be talking
>>> about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
>>> Empire, and it would
>>> have to be something goth.
>>>
>>> I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I
>>> did
>>> not present it or promote it.
>>> If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
>>> Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
>>> fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what
>>> happened
>>> financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but
>>> it
>>> is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
>>> touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was
>>> not),
>>> if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually
>>> do).
>>> If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I
>>> have
>>> done that many times.
>>>
>>> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
>>> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at
>>> least
>>> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had
>>> no
>>> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
>>> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago
>>> learned
>>> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail
>>> right?
>>>
>>> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
>>> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
>>> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
>>> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on
>>> the
>>> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
>>> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
>>>
>>> -mt
>>>
>>> > Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
>>> > then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,   wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the
>>> track
>>> >> record during the period
>>> >> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
>>> >> exactly
>>> >> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without
>>> careful
>>> >> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't
>>> enough
>>> >> red
>>> >> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
>>> >> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
>>> >> agreed
>>> >> on.
>>> >>
>>> >> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
>>> >> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>>> >>
>>> >> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
>>> >> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that
>>> while
>>> >> I
>>> >> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
>>> >> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you
>>> thought
>>> >> you
>>> >> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between
>>> me
>>> >> and your band
>>> >> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other
>>> words,
>>> >> you
>>> >> were paid that night
>>> >> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you
>>> got
>>> >> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also
>>> you
>>> >> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE
>>> the
>>> >> next time.
>>> >>
>>> >> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that
>>> a
>>> >> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a
>>> couple
>>> >> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT
>>> THOSE
>>> >> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim
>>> you've
>>> >> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so
>>> don't
>>> >> try
>>> >> to backpedal on that).
>>> >>
>>> >> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I
>>> do
>>> >> not
>>> >> know to be true, am I?
>>> >> Then you should do the same.
>>> >>
>>> >>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>>> >>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago
>>> are
>>> >>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy
>>> or
>>> >>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>>> >>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away
>>> with a
>>> >>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams,
>>> and
>>> >>> keep promoting shows.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All
>>> it
>>> >>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John  wrote:
>>> >>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm
>>> guessing
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> it
>>> >>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>>> >>>> music
>>> >>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on
>>> it in
>>> >>>> case
>>> >>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>>> >>>> playing
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've
>>> noticed
>>> >>>> one
>>> >>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many,
>>> many
>>> >>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to
>>> respond
>>> >>>> to a
>>> >>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
>>> >>>> years
>>> >>>> ago.
>>> >>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or
>>> there
>>> >>>> at a
>>> >>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about
>>> the
>>> >>>> shows I
>>> >>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me
>>> realize
>>> >>>> that I
>>> >>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
>>> >>>> together
>>> >>>> or
>>> >>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his
>>> shows
>>> >>>> that
>>> >>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh
>>> >>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play
>>> here
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to
>>> shows.
>>> >>>> I
>>> >>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based
>>> on
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>>> work
>>> >>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
>>> >>>> Sure,
>>> >>>> he
>>> >>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who
>>> hasn't. I
>>> >>>> just
>>> >>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>>> a
>>> >>>> few
>>> >>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>> >>>> music
>>> >>>> in
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> John
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Jeremy wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody.
>>> That
>>> >>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted
>>> was
>>> >>>>> a total fluke too.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,   wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the
>>> cops
>>> >>>>>>> if
>>> >>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good
>>> for
>>> >>>>>>> them. Good story.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole
>>> staff, or
>>> >>>>>> even
>>> >>>>>> remotely most of it)
>>> >>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
>>> >>>>>> collude,
>>> >>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>> >>>>>> convince
>>> >>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station,
>>> as
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> as
>>> >>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they
>>> wouldn't
>>> >>>>>> have
>>> >>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on
>>> my
>>> >>>>>> side
>>> >>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of
>>> my
>>> >>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned,
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> what
>>> >>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
>>> >>>>>> served
>>> >>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>> >>>>>> faithfully
>>> >>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to
>>> make
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the
>>> office I
>>> >>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them
>>> out.
>>> >>>>>> Not
>>> >>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other
>>> words.
>>> >>>>>> At
>>> >>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to
>>> do
>>> >>>>>> their
>>> >>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to
>>> print
>>> >>>>>> up
>>> >>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned,
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> course.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take
>>> calls
>>> >>>>>> from
>>> >>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>> >>>>>> message
>>> >>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I
>>> made
>>> >>>>>> calls
>>> >>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar
>>> listings.
>>> >>>>>> Some
>>> >>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't
>>> there,
>>> >>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who
>>> concocted
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for
>>> me,
>>> >>>>>> as
>>> >>>>>> if
>>> >>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here').
>>> But
>>> >>>>>> how
>>> >>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
>>> >>>>>> someone
>>> >>>>>> who
>>> >>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the
>>> time?
>>> >>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
>>> >>>>>> Station
>>> >>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>> >>>>>> import/indie
>>> >>>>>> experimental/industrial
>>> >>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the
>>> station
>>> >>>>>> never
>>> >>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>> >>>>>> Instead,
>>> >>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which
>>> they
>>> >>>>>> would
>>> >>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them
>>> with
>>> >>>>>> me
>>> >>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>> >>>>>> experimental,
>>> >>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
>>> >>>>>> station.
>>> >>>>>> The
>>> >>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> five
>>> >>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
>>> >>>>>> quite
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers
>>> while
>>> >>>>>> also
>>> >>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was
>>> being
>>> >>>>>> hurt
>>> >>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>> >>>>>> anyway)
>>> >>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>> >>>>>> Rasputina
>>> >>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>> >>>>>> taking
>>> >>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask,
>>> why
>>> >>>>>> would
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?)
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>> >>>>>> supposed
>>> >>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
>>> >>>>>> merely
>>> >>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums.
>>> All
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven.
>>> No
>>> >>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any
>>> proof
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than
>>> a
>>> >>>>>> kangaroo one.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement
>>> carts
>>> >>>>>> (not
>>> >>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>> >>>>>> impetus
>>> >>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In
>>> other
>>> >>>>>> words,
>>> >>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>> >>>>>> position
>>> >>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total
>>> lack
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> give
>>> >>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
>>> >>>>>> music
>>> >>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
>>> >>>>>> from
>>> >>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
>>> >>>>>> people
>>> >>>>>> who
>>> >>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>> >>>>>> instance
>>> >>>>>> that could be brought up
>>> >>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
>>> >>>>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their
>>> neck'. I
>>> >>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I
>>> possibly
>>> >>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
>>> >>>>>> could
>>> >>>>>> have
>>> >>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your
>>> neck')
>>> >>>>>> but
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>> >>>>>> instances
>>> >>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>> >>>>>> instance
>>> >>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so
>>> happened to
>>> >>>>>> be
>>> >>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>> >>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
>>> >>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>> our
>>> >>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>> >>>>>> nothing
>>> >>>>>> do
>>> >>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>> >>>>>> example.
>>> >>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my
>>> show
>>> >>>>>> by
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> program director.
>>> >>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been
>>> warned
>>> >>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>> it before, and that was
>>> >>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have
>>> been
>>> >>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>> >>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>> >>>>>> certainly
>>> >>>>>> not grounds for
>>> >>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
>>> >>>>>> useful
>>> >>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the
>>> station
>>> >>>>>> staff
>>> >>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>> >>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
>>> >>>>>> people,
>>> >>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like
>>> a
>>> >>>>>> way
>>> >>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>> >>>>>> accusation
>>> >>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>> >>>>>> semester.
>>> >>>>>> And that's it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>> >>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned
>>> from
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station.
>>> >>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people
>>> as
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either
>>> actually
>>> >>>>>> done
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>> >>>>>> station
>>> >>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>> >>>>>> threats.
>>> >>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition
>>> amongst
>>> >>>>>> WRCT
>>> >>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>> >>>>>> following
>>> >>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification
>>> for
>>> >>>>>> banning
>>> >>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid
>>> that
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked
>>> like,
>>> >>>>>> nor
>>> >>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that
>>> part
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that
>>> particular
>>> >>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> ban,
>>> >>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time.
>>> I
>>> >>>>>> had
>>> >>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had
>>> been
>>> >>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But
>>> I
>>> >>>>>> wasn't
>>> >>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over
>>> that
>>> >>>>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> two
>>> >>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>> >>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the
>>> station,
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned,
>>> say,
>>> >>>>>> two
>>> >>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer
>>> have
>>> >>>>>> been
>>> >>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>> >>>>>> involved
>>> >>>>>> at
>>> >>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate
>>> me
>>> >>>>>> having
>>> >>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>> >>>>>> banned,
>>> >>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
>>> >>>>>> grab).
>>> >>>>>> Then
>>> >>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original
>>> plotter)
>>> >>>>>> left
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular
>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> but
>>> >>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>> >>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>> >>>>>> warning
>>> >>>>>> and without recourse.
>>> >>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place
>>> at
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>> >>>>>> with the wrong people.
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> > pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> > http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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>


From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Sun Oct 26 15:49:27 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:49:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <c7200bce0810242134m27ae3d27uaba8941994a94ca5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49683.70.20.70.70.1224715246.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221554u2d78a497g4478310a62301342@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<49448.70.20.82.110.1224868551.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<49028423.9040907@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810242042w3355880fp35f53de371caec57@mail.gmail.com>
	<49029CDA.1020700@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810242134m27ae3d27uaba8941994a94ca5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49621.70.20.82.110.1225050567.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>


John is a little misinformed about the issue. This has nothing to do with
making bands sell tickets (which, whenever I do, I do it purely on a
profit-sharing basis - it is never pay to play). This has to with whether
I follow through with any obligations I commit to. Which I always do. If I
say I'm going to pay someone something, I do it.

And as for your insinuation about 'promoters' taking out ads, color
posters, etc, there's nobody
you can be talking about other than Elise. And sometimes a lot of fat good
it does for them. Not everything they do smells like gold. They did a show
for System Syn in a huge place where it shouldn't have been (Altar Bar)
and nobody came. They didn't provide an adequate sound situation for
Prometheus Burning and were dismissive about the live-act element of their
fetish event, at the particular event. These are facts I've been told
directly by people involved or attending the shows.
Note that I'm NOT trying to talk shit on Elise or anything, As far as I
know they have successful productions as well. But so do I. And nobody
bats 1.000 all the time.

Kelly rarely if ever took out ads. Jim isn't taking out ads. Neither of
them got 'radio' coverage (if by that you mean ads on the X or something).
And what's the difference whether a flyer is black & white or color, as
long as it's readable? I don't go to random arbitrary locations. I flyer
everywhere that stores allow flyers within the city limits, BAR NONE. And
on the rare occasion I do hand-to-hand promotion, it's  because the show
is directly relevant to the audience I'm trying to reach (like for example
getting Obituary's crowd to go see Watain, which was a really good idea).
 I don't 'post to an e-mail list'. I post wherever it makes sense to post,
whether's it's livejournal groups, NTMTO board, WYEP's PSA page, this is
happening, newspaper listings, whatever makes sense to do given the
audience for the show. So none of what you're saying applies to me, even
though I know full well you intended it to. It's becoming more and more
evident that you don't know your shit, even while you are accusing me of
not knowing mine.

None of what you are saying is relevant to me except the part about
blaming the damn lazy music fans. The music fans are damn lazy. That's
their fault, not mine. For example, the fact that nobody came to see The
Brides show that your band opened can be nobody's fault but the fact that
the
scene either had no idea who the Brides were, or didn't care. I'm not
blaming the band. And I've never decided that bands deserve 'no money' for
hauling their asses into town if *in advance* I've made an agreement with
them to give them a set amount or a set door deal. I sign over 100
contracts a year with bands, and fufill them. Jim Semonik does the same (a
dozen or so per year).
Bands who come here without contracts get whatever door money they can,
that's the vagarity
of going out on the road and trying to play weekday show in a
disinterested, backwards town
when your band is still utterly unknown.

How many contracts do YOU fulfill? If you are a local band, and you have a
local fanbase, your 'verbal contract', when you agree to open a show, is
to do the best you can to draw people to it.
If you equally fail in that mission, then you are not keeping up your end
of the 'promise', either.

Anyway, the point is - you can't really find *anything* I've done that
really smacks of being
'wrong'. So you're really running out of steam in both the accusation and
the argument departments.

-mt

> Some promoters take out big ads in periodicals, put up large
> attractive color posters all over town, distribute attractive
> professionally made fliers at key locations with the assistance of a
> street team, get radio coverage, and then consistently get people to
> arrive to see bands play. Other promoters hand out shitty black and
> white fliers at arbitrary locations at weird times, maybe post to an
> e-mail list now and then, and then blame the band who just drove into
> town that afternoon when nobody arrives to see the show. Sometimes
> they also blame those damned lazy music fans for not seeking out
> information about which bands are playing where. And sometimes they
> decide that bands don't actually deserve any money for hauling their
> asses into town and doing their job.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:13 AM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I realize it is a promoter's job to promote a show and I typed my
>> response
>> out wrong. What I meant to say was that it's usually on them to sell
>> some of
>> the tickets to the show. You've never been to one where the bands had a
>> certain amount of tickets to sell on their own? I still think a band
>> that
>> wants a decent audience at their show should take it on themselves to
>> get
>> the word out as well. I'm not in a band but if I was I would never rely
>> solely on the promoter, no matter how good they are, to bring people to
>> the
>> show.
>>
>> John
>>
>> Jeremy wrote:
>>>
>>> "I've heard a lot of bands complain that they don't get enough for a
>>> show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to the show."
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you're talking about there. It's a promoter's job to
>>> promote a show. It's a band's job to play a show. Bands make music.
>>> Promoters sell tickets. If bands sold tickets themselves, they
>>> wouldn't need promoters.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No problem Manny. I've never heard any concrete proof of anything
>>>> major
>>>> come
>>>> out of these discussions. It always seemed like it was someone trying
>>>> to
>>>> make a big deal out of something small. Almost any promoter I know has
>>>> been
>>>> accused of some bullshit at one time or another and 95% of the time it
>>>> was
>>>> usually the bands fault. I've heard a lot of bands complain that they
>>>> don't
>>>> get enough for a show, but it's usually on them to sell the tickets to
>>>> the
>>>> show. If they don't sell a decent amount, they won't get paid what the
>>>> other
>>>> bands who did pull their weight were payed and they don't deserve to
>>>> be.
>>>> As
>>>> for the comment about the knife incident. I don't know anything about
>>>> it
>>>> but
>>>> if it was in self defense, I really don't have a problem with it.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, John.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even more importantly, based on whatever has been discussed on this
>>>>> list
>>>>> in the past ten years,
>>>>> there's very little that I've really even done "wrong" per se.
>>>>> We talked so far about my being late for radio shows, my rubbing a
>>>>> handful
>>>>> of people the wrong
>>>>> way at a radio station which caused them to take undue vengeance, and
>>>>> my
>>>>> trying to defend myself when physically attacked three times.
>>>>> Anything
>>>>> else?
>>>>> If that is the absolute worst that can come up (and I guarantee you
>>>>> that
>>>>> it is), then the rest is just shit-talking and either falsifying
>>>>> incidents
>>>>> or blowing them out of proportion.
>>>>>
>>>>> -mt
>>>>>
>>>>>  Sure, he
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> just can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> a few things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> music in Pittsburgh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Sun Oct 26 16:06:03 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THD - "evolution of our decay" album
In-Reply-To: <17aa36ad0810252014x1fc1d3d3l2705126ddbaaa687@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<49706.70.20.70.70.1224719375.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221656j80b2d37k460b32b43c089e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4900DDFD.5090100@comcast.net>
	<c7200bce0810231419s5dc5d991i7bbf4b809a3fbce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49454.70.20.82.110.1224869173.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810241401qf7327b5o3f36d656cce26150@mail.gmail.com>
	<49356.70.20.82.110.1224886713.squirrel@webmail6.pair.com>
	<102520081333.18259.4903201400070F800000475322230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<c7200bce0810250856k2d08da41u399f3370cc7da61b@mail.gmail.com>
	<17aa36ad0810252014x1fc1d3d3l2705126ddbaaa687@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49679.70.20.82.110.1225051563.squirrel@webmail10.pair.com>


Well, Chris, this is not about kinds of 'people' (since few are on this
list) - this is just about
Jeremy's long continuous attempts to try and attribute things to me that
either aren't true or
are greatly exaggerated. It is one thing to have people not like me for
one reason for another (spurious though many of those reasons may be). It
is another thing to have to listen to an active
shit-talker who doesn't seem to stop yet doesn't really seem to have any
of his facts together, either. This exchange is therefore an attempt to
get him to realize his folly. Which may also
be futile, by the way, but there's no harm in making the attempt.

> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Jeremy <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, I was talking about a different band anyway, but there's no
>> point in continuing the conversation. People who want to believe that
>> Manny can do no wrong will do so no matter what.
>
> And people who think he's evil will continue to do so no matter what.
> So it goes. Poo-too-weet.
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>


From gwenix at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 00:41:21 2008
From: gwenix at gmail.com (gwen)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:41:21 -0400
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
Message-ID: <cbc34c790810272141y2b7fcd81qf50bb3744489118b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:02 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
> They don't put the entire orchestra on billboards and bus
> stop ads, they put the face of the conductor, who is the face of the
> orchestra, even though he does not perform on an instrument, nor create or
> perform his original music. The conductor, unless he is conducting his own
> music, has nothing to do with the performance of original music creations
> (and neither do the symphony players), only with the reinterpretation of
> others' works, like the 18th century equivalent of a DJ.

Er, yes and no.

First of all, all good conductors have written their own music, and
it's circulated.  It's the equivalent of a potential professor showing
his credentials by showing his portfolio of published essays, a
conductor doesn't get to be one until he's proven he can write works
that others appreciate.  Modern DJs do not have that requirement.

Another difference is that music on a page is usually written to be
interpreted.  Modern DJs take music that is already recorded and mix
it up; it was already interpreted before being reinterpreted through
montage.  The conductor pulls interpretation out of the raw text of
the music.

A further difference not touched here is that the conductor is a
manager of people; not just the orchestra, but many of the matters off
stage.  But even just managing the orchestra can be like herding cats
at times.  This is something a modern DJ does not have to deal with.

By the way, I might also point out that all of this shows why a
conductor is more than just a celebrity face.  If hiring a conductor
were all about celebrity, we'd have had one A-hole I will not name as
our conductor... fortunately we didn't; I'd really rather not have our
conductors throw chairs at the first violinist at every rehearsel no
matter how famous they are.  Instead, we hired someone who could
manage the orchestra professionally, and contribute a tremendous
amount of talent back into the organization both on and off stage.

-- 
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt

From gwenix at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 00:45:28 2008
From: gwenix at gmail.com (gwen)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:45:28 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Girl Talk 11/22 contract
In-Reply-To: <cbc34c790810272127r47e244e2k504ec2e917e256a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com>
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com>
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com>
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<cbc34c790810272127r47e244e2k504ec2e917e256a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cbc34c790810272145n7f22dcdbp7c038957cbb58af8@mail.gmail.com>

I, uh, meant to send this to the list, not just to Manny.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: gwen <gwenix at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: Girl Talk 11/22 contract
To: manny at garfieldartworks.com


Wow, stuff happened on this list while I was offline with surgery
matters.  I'm belatedly just pulling out this one line, taking it out
of context (because it's the first thing I read given that my mailbox
is threaded), and replying to it mootly...

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:55 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> First of all, Girl Talk doesn't get paid that much. I mean the conductor
> of the Pittsburgh Symphony gets paid probably around the amount that Girl
> Talk does, per concert. And why is the conductor there? Just as much for

The conductor is paid a salary, not by concert.  He is responsible for
much more than just standing in front of the orchestra and waving a
baton on the evenings of the concerts, there are rehearsels, and he
has a management role in the organization as well.  Also, his salary
is high.  I don't know what the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra actually
pays its Conductor these days, but I do know that he recently donated
$100,000 back to it out of his own pocket, and this article
(http://tinyurl.com/5wflco) points out that conductors make high six
figure salaries, some even make seven.  Given that Pittsburgh's
orchestra is one of the top in the country, I suspect we're very close
to that seven figure marker.

So, I'm not sure what you meant to imply about the Girl Talk's budget,
but I'm sure that if they did make what the Pittsburgh Symphony
Orchestra's Conductor makes per day, they'd be a lot better off.

--
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt



-- 
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt

From manny at garfieldartworks.com  Tue Oct 28 17:23:24 2008
From: manny at garfieldartworks.com (manny at garfieldartworks.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:23:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Girl Talk
In-Reply-To: <cbc34c790810272141y2b7fcd81qf50bb3744489118b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1831eee0810190833v727aa46fla1d375e96a73c837@mail.gmail.com> 
	<102220081344.19233.48FF2E2D000E2D6000004B2122243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF970E0C0A0B06@att.net>
	<49508.70.20.70.70.1224710082.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> 
	<c7200bce0810221443i548372c3of4c80495dc6758af@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fa7b9bc0810221454s33e99a75qe8d0f8386e6c5a80@mail.gmail.com> 
	<c7200bce0810221542q5a531da1k2d2d93f5d4f5cda4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49700.70.20.70.70.1224716133.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> 
	<c7200bce0810221630i1ad68747ma827a0885c898bd9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49725.70.20.70.70.1224720124.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>
	<cbc34c790810272141y2b7fcd81qf50bb3744489118b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49593.141.151.183.78.1225229004.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>


OK, first of all, if we are talking about a near-seven-figure salary, then
Girl Talk defiinitely does not get paid per concert as much as a top
conductor does. which is my point. also see below.
i know exactly what the duties of a conductor are, as well as their
training and their requirements so please don't presume that i do not.

> First of all, all good conductors have written their own music,  Modern
DJs do not have that requirement.

It rarely gets played, though. At least not in the US. Maybe in Europe
where cultured types are willing to hear new music sometimes. Many modern
DJs are also electronic producers. They have a much easier time performing
their own music - if they want to, all they have to do is slip an MP3 or a
dubplate into their set.

> Another difference is that music on a page is usually written to be
> interpreted.  Modern DJs take music that is already recorded and mix
> it up;  The conductor pulls interpretation out of the raw text of
> the music.

this is merely a difference in technology, since during the period that
classical music was written
there was no other way to realize it other than interpreting it from a page.

> A further difference not touched here is that the conductor is a
> manager of people; not just the orchestra, but many of the matters off
> stage.  But even just managing the orchestra can be like herding cats
> at times.  This is something a modern DJ does not have to deal with.

unless of course, it's a DJ who is also an electronic artist who plays
live with other musicians, on tour, in which case the same managing skills
would apply. i do of course  understand the difference between managing a
band and a whole 120+ person orchestra etc, but again that is a difference
in technology - most kinds of music being written today do not require a
whole live orchestra to reproduce.

> By the way, I might also point out that all of this shows why a
> conductor is more than just a celebrity face.

I'm aware of all that, but the celebrity factor is there, just as much as
the celebrity factor is there with someone like Girl Talk. Again, most of
the differences involve disparity in technology levels,
and therefore the comparison is fairly valid, if by no means exact (which
I did not intend it to be).

I was just trying to make a point that there are other 'interpreters' of
music in other genres who also possess a celebrity factor. that's all.

From sugargothee at aol.com  Tue Oct 28 19:52:09 2008
From: sugargothee at aol.com (sugargothee at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:52:09 -0400
Subject: The Gothees @ Arsenal Lanes Wednesday October 29 HAUNT & BOWL!
Message-ID: <8CB076F536A3FF4-E50-13E3@WEBMAIL-MB09.sysops.aol.com>

Goth-N-Bowl at Arsenal Lanes!

Once again The Gothees find themselves in the gutter for another night of Rock-N-Bowl!

This time they're sweetening the deal...FREE Meet The Gothees CDs for anyone who comes in costume!!! Some of you are thinking - "Hey, I already have the CD" - well that might be true, but do your friends have it? The holidays are right around the corner and why not stuff their stockings Gothee style?

The Gothees 6th Annual Halloween Bash is at Arsenal Lanes 44th & Butler Streets, Lawrenceville. 9pm-Midnight. All-U-Can-Bowl, plus The Gothees. $8 cover. Includes bowling. 21+

Be there and be scare!

From taratempalski at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 15:06:26 2008
From: taratempalski at gmail.com (Tara Tempalski)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:06:26 -0400
Subject: Masquerade 12 This Saturday at Ceremony
Message-ID: <3b502a470810301206g6f386002w303d1a2b1f67eeaa@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure how many people on this list would be interested...but I figured I
might as well pass along the info for the 12th Annual Masquerade Ball this
Saturday at Ceremony, albeit last minute.

--Tara


Masquerade 12 - Midnight Mayhem
Saturday November 1 2008

The Pegasus Lounge
818 Liberty Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15222

w/ Special Guests:

Autumn (80s inspired goth rock from Minneapolis)
Faded Sympathy (sultry post punk from Columbus)
The Burning Path (gloomy glam rock from Pittsburgh)

Costume Contest at Midnight (cash prizes!)

18 to enter
21 to drink

$10 advance
$12 door

Venue Info:
Credit cards now accepted at bar
Smoking is permitted

Here is a brief schedule for the event:

8pm - Doors Open
8-9pm - Djs / Dancing
9pm-12am - Bands Play
12am - Costume Contest (cash prizes!)
12:30 - 2am - Djs / Dancing

Former Night Shift member Dj Imperium and Dj Mass Hysteria (me) plan to
deliver all the best spooky dance music you love to stomp and swirl to! We
hope to provide an outstanding experience and look forward to seeing you
there!

You can still get your advance tickets ($10) at Eide's, Paul's CDs, Dave's
Music Mine, Slacker, Wicked Discs and The Exchange Squirrel Hill!

Click the links for more band info...

Autumn:
http://www.myspace.com/autumn1994

Faded Sympathy:
http://www.myspace.com/fadedsympathy

The Burning Path:
http://www.myspace.com/theburningpath



Also...if you're interested in regular Ceremony updates and information
please check out...

Ceremony MySpace:
http://www.myspace.com/ceremonypghofficial

Ceremony / Night Shift Livejournal:
http://community.livejournal.com/thenightshift/

Ceremony Facebook Group:
Members search for: Ceremony (Pittsburgh)